[Chase]

noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay chavbe'lu', 'ej wo' choqmeH may' DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu'

English Translation: "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat."

Episode Sources: DS9: The War of the Warrior, TOS: Friday's Children/The Savage Curtain




I would first like to thank Jovek for suggesting this excellent Proverb for discussion! I think the fundamental meaning of this proverb is ethical question of "Do the Ends justify the Means?" or "Do the Means justify the Ends?" If you have to do an immoral act to achieve a moral end, it is not a victory. Likewise, if you do a moral act that leads to a defeat to prevent a immoral act, it is not truly a defeat.

I think this is a great example of how the Klingon culture is not one of blind conquering and a quest for blood, but one of ethical and moral foundation. Which was kind of a fundamental shift in the Federation's initial perception of them.

I think this proverb is very applicable to real life. I feel that everyone should ask themselves similar questions throughout their life. Sometimes how you do something is more important than the final result.

What is everyone else's thoughts on this particular Proverb?

If you would like to submit your favorite proverb for a future discussion, please check out the link HERE and add a new post!

[thexpl0r3r]

The more I think of this proverb the more I believe that on Earth it would be called something like Pyrrhic victory. Looks like humans are not that much different from Klingons...

[Stormy]

I may be making this too simplistic, but I will compare it to sports, namely Major League Baseball (If you live somewhere other than the USA, you will probably use soccer!).

I hate the New York Yankees. Always have. Always will. Not gonna change. That being the case, we will pretend they are the "bad guys" for this analogy.
I love the Atlanta Braves. They are currently the worst team in baseball, but my loyalty remains true to them. We will call them the "good guys" for this analogy.
No matter which two teams you fill in, the roles are still the same.
Let's suppose, for some reason, the Yankees were eliminated from baseball. The bad guys would be gone. We would never have to see them again because they had been completely eliminated. Most people who hate the Yankees would cheer if this were to take place. They would laugh, tell Yankees jokes, etc. It would be revelry at its best.
But, underneath all the revelry, you would know the game of baseball was no longer the same and that something an integral part of the "universe" of baseball was no more. You would, despite your excitement, feel a losss as well.
Any civilization which is completely wiped out, regardless of where they fit in on the "good guy" vs "bad guy" scale, creates a void and that void is felt, at least to some extent, by all who remain.

[Chase]

I may be making this too simplistic, but I will compare it to sports, namely Major League Baseball (If you live somewhere other than the USA, you will probably use soccer!).

I think that is a very interesting way to look at it Stormy! That's one of the things I love about the proverbs is that there are many different ways they can be interpreted and I think many of them have deep philosophical meaning and many of them have very logical literal meaning as well! But I think your interpenetration makes a lot of sense! Good or bad, somethings are part of our universe. Completely removing it could cause unintended consequences.

The more I think of this proverb the more I believe that on Earth it would be called something like Pyrrhic victory. Looks like humans are not that much different from Klingons...

I think that definition of Pyrrhic Victory ties in very well with this proverb as well!

[Tain]

This has always been one of my favourite proverbs from the empire. It makes a lot of sense and can be applied to any number of situations.


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