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Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

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T'Tan, Sat 21 Oct, 2017 7:59 AM
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    #1
    Greetings UFP,

    Stormy asked me in my Ask Me section a similar question and I believe it is a very discussable quote. So I like to put this one up for open discussion.

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    #2
    My original question was "Do the needs of the many ALWAYS outweigh the needs of the one?"

    It would be hard to argue that this would likely be the case in most scenarios, but is it ALWAYS true? I have attempted to come up with circumstances where I would believe this "rule" would be broken, but it has been difficult.

    As a former member of the U.S. military, this came to mind. There are countless cases where a group of soldiers risked their lives to rescue a fellow fallen or imprisoned soldier. In those cases, the decision was the need of the one outweighed the need for the entire group to survive.

    During recent natural disasters here in the U.S. countless people (emergency personnel, U.S. National Guard, civilian volunteers) have put the needs of "the few" above their own.

    I'm sure there are others...but I will maintain the exceptions are few and far between.
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    #3
    I think its always true. In situations where one person must be sacrificed to save millions, would you save that one person you love or save the millions of people? I would save the millions.
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    #4
    When I was a child, WoK introduced the idea above. If I recall my university studies (knowing I could just Google it), the concept is called Utilitarianism, or is a derivative.

    Regardless, I also tend to think that overall, the idea is true. Thus, to me, it's not a maxim to hold utterly. I think the military example above is where the idea falls from being an absolute true. The brotherhood I believe exists in that setting prevents rational action (it is not rational to risk sacrificing 2+ persons for 1, yet it is an acceptable practice within the military or first-responders). And don;t get me wrong, if I were the 1, I would certainly hope I would not be left behind.
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    #5
    We risk many to rescue one because rescuing the one often is the need of the many.
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    #6
    I think its always true. In situations where one person must be sacrificed to save millions, would you save that one person you love or save the millions of people? I would save the millions.
    That might depend on who is that "one."
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    #7
    We risk many to rescue one because rescuing the one often is the need of the many.
    How often is rescuing the one the need of the many?
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    #8
    How often is rescuing the one the need of the many?
    Considering the number of people in the world... Daily, or even more often than that.
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    #9
     –  Last edited by Ian_E; Sun 22 Oct, 2017 9:29 PM.
    I believe that the main point that I must re-iterate here is that It depends on many factors (I will talk about four (4) today).

    1) Here we come to our First Depends: It depends on the person doing the logical reasoning. In many scenarios, the needs of the many outweigh the few.
    Take this hypothetical situation for example The trolley problem:, You have a train track that you can change if you do nothing, five (5) people die. However, If you pull the lever and redirect the train, one (1) person will die. How would you respond?

    2) The second depends on The morals of the person. Think to yourself, what do you personally think that you should do in the previous situation? To you, does one matter more
    that many? Does age mater? What matters to the person who is deciding?

    3) We can now transition to our Third depends. Duty to respond. Do you have a duty to respond? (If you do not know what this means, please click
    HERE for a Wikipedia page) If you have an non-ethical duty to respond (i.e. a bystander), then it is
    implied that you should help, (i.e. FIrst aid in someone who collapses). If you have an ethical duty to respond (i.e. EMS or Fire or Law Enforcement), then
    because of your ethical code (as a first responder), you MUST help or risk many different ethical consequences (dismissed for failure to respond (violating ethical
    code).

    4) With brings us to our fourth & final depends, diffusion of responsibility (If you do not know what this means, please click HERE for a Wikipedia page). If there are other people close by, you will be less likely to
    respond (in normal circumstances, If you are in a crowded restaurant or mall for example). This is because you believe that other people will do something and as a
    result, the social pressure of the many outweighs the few.

    So, as you can see there are many different factors that we need to look at and discuss (I have only talked about a few here) than can be answered in a two (2) sentence answer.

    My apologies for getting carried away, that is what I would bring up in a debate, but more it would be even more structured.
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    #10
    Considering the number of people in the world... Daily, or even more often than that.
    Do you have an example when the many need to rescue the one? When do the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I believe that the main point that I must re-iterate here is that It depends on many factors (I will talk about four (4) today).

    1) Here we come to our First Depends: It depends on the person doing the logical reasoning. In many scenarios, the needs of the many outweigh the few.
    Take this hypothetical situation for example The trolley problem:, You have a train track that you can change if you do nothing, five (5) people die. However, If you pull the lever and redirect the train, one (1) person will die. How would you respond?

    2) The second depends on The morals of the person. Think to yourself, what do you personally think that you should do in the previous situation? To you, does one matter more
    that many? Does age mater? What matters to the person who is deciding?
    In both those cases, how is it that the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many?

    3) We can now transition to our Third depends. Duty to respond. Do you have a duty to respond? (If you do not know what this means, please click
    HERE for a Wikipedia page) If you have an non-ethical duty to respond (i.e. a bystander), then it is
    implied that you should help, (i.e. FIrst aid in someone who collapses). If you have an ethical duty to respond (i.e. EMS or Fire or Law Enforcement), then
    because of your ethical code (as a first responder), you MUST help or risk many different ethical consequences (dismissed for failure to respond (violating ethical
    code).
    As far as a duty to rescue, that's just "...a circumstance in which a party can be held liable for failing to come to the rescue of another party in peril." It's not that the need of one outweigh the need of the many; he/she is trying not to get arrested/fined/sued.

    4) With brings us to our fourth & final depends, diffusion of responsibility (If you do not know what this means, please click HERE for a Wikipedia page). If there are other people close by, you will be less likely to
    respond (in normal circumstances, If you are in a crowded restaurant or mall for example). This is because you believe that other people will do something and as a
    result, the social pressure of the many outweighs the few.

    So, as you can see there are many different factors that we need to look at and discuss (I have only talked about a few here) than can be answered in a two (2) sentence answer.

    My apologies for getting carried away, that is what I would bring up in a debate, but more it would be even more structured.
    I don't see how the fourth applies, either. It's strictly based on "...a sociopsychological phenomenon whereby a person is less likely to take responsibility for action or inaction when others are present. Considered a form of attribution, the individual assumes that others either are responsible for taking action or have already done so."

    This isn't the needs of one outweighing the needs of many; this idea is based off people not taking responsibility one way or the other.

    When we're talking about need, it seems more like we should be talking about how the Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs of the many outweigh the M's HN of the few. It seems that the "physiological", "safety", "belonging" and "love", "esteem", "self-actualization", and "self-transcendence" of the majority will come before those of the few, or the one.
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    #11
    Ask any firefighter responding to an emergency situation.

    Ask anyone who's volunteered for a search party to find a missing child.

    Ask any soldier how they feel about leaving a comrade behind in the face of the enemy.

    I could go on...
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    #12
    I think the first responders and military aren't really good examples because the situations described don't reflect the concept being discussed.

    It's not like they're deciding to sacrifice the many for the sake of the few, that choice doesn't exist. The objective in those situations is for everybody to survive, and the training and equipment is supposed to mitigate the risk as much as possible.

    A more apt example would be only being able to rescue one person or twenty people - and I'm pretty sure in those cases, the military and first responders would go for the twenty in most cases.
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    #13
    With all things being equal, I see this as an 'ideal' more than an 'absolute'.

    Thus, I do not feel it necessarily works for *all* situations or scenarios. The world and life are not "black and white". It doesn't mean we don't strive to obey and follow *all* laws. If you think I'm wrong, think about your commute to work or school. Did you go over the speed limit in your car? Did you obey every traffic regulation to the letter? Did you cross the street only at a designated cross-walk and only when the pedestrian light was lit?

    This ideal is like many. It is great guideline or rule of thumb to follow, but the situation(s) many not always be so clear cut.

    Using the example of soldiers, emergency personnel... the save 20 people or the single person, on its surface is very clear cut. Save the 20! However, mudding up the waters, say that one person is vitally important. Perhaps they are the only one who can bring about a peace agreement between two warring factions. Perhaps it would stave off a war between two factions. Wouldn't saving that one person save hundreds, thousands, or even millions of lives? Thus, we save 20 *now* and see many more die later?

    What if that one person was a child? And the 20 were convicted murderers, rapists, etc? Do you save the many (the criminals) or the one (the innocent child)?

    Hypothetical is interesting to discuss and usually the 'ideal' meaning is often the sound and reasonable one. But with a few variables, as life is actually full of them, things are not so clear cut and clean.

    For the most part, I think the decision will come down to the individual rescuer/savior/etc at the moment the decision needs to be made. Using the 'trolley example', a push of the button will save 1 person or 10 people by switching the tracks the running trolley is on. Naturally, most will push the one to save the group of 10. Yet, say that single person was a loved one, a child, or a very close friend? To add to the complexity, say the 10 were convicted criminals, politicians, or jihadists?

    This is my opinion, but I don't see the main question as an 'absolute'. In fact, I see it as an ideal to strive for in general, when you face a life altering decision that may affect others.
    Silynn
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    #14
    Using the example of soldiers, emergency personnel... the save 20 people or the single person, on its surface is very clear cut. Save the 20! However, mudding up the waters, say that one person is vitally important. Perhaps they are the only one who can bring about a peace agreement between two warring factions. Perhaps it would stave off a war between two factions. Wouldn't saving that one person save hundreds, thousands, or even millions of lives? Thus, we save 20 *now* and see many more die later?
    Would we send a group of 20 people to save one person who isn't influential or vital to a mission?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ask any firefighter responding to an emergency situation.

    Ask anyone who's volunteered for a search party to find a missing child.

    Ask any soldier how they feel about leaving a comrade behind in the face of the enemy.

    I could go on...
    Would we send a group of 20 people to save one person who isn't influential or vital to a mission?
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    #15
    I'm going to Quote my Father, a 25-year Veteran of the Canadian forces when he retired, on this: "If that's what it takes, so be it."

    You're old enough to, at the very least, remember how the bodies of two US Soldiers were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu, and after being raised on military bases my entire childhood, I've never met any servicemember wouldn't risk their life to prevent that from happening, especially if they're facing off against animals like ISIS.
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