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STAR TREK DISCOVERY Is For People That DON'T LIKE TREK! Interview Conf

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Bridger, Tue 22 Jan, 2019 4:11 PM
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    #91
    By the license everything has to be 25% different that includes everything so it can't be canon.
    What does that even mean? It's canon beause it's officially produced, and the producers said it's canon. I mean, I dont know what 25% different means, because most Star Treks look different from each other, and they bring new things into the canon. But that doesn't stop it from being canon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So you would assume that once they have put it on Youtube it would have been a hit, but the opposite was the case.
    You said it was like a million views, right? That's a lot of people. I think one of the football games last weekend did pretty well, and it got about 2.8 million views. But most of the people who are watching Discovery already have CBS subscriptions, or are pirating the show, so you're going to have a lot of falloff right there. Then, there are many people who might not even know. I didn't know it was on Youtube until maybe episode 4 was out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The paywall was one of the things back in UPN days that also did not do well for Enterprise. It wasn't until much later when it was on normal TV did I start meeting other people outside my friends that liked it.

    Saying that my boss in work at the time never had being into any other Star Trek saw Enterprise and loved it, said it was the most realistic Si Fi he'd seen in years.
    What do you mean, paywall for UPN? Like, you needed to have cable to watch it? That's kind of an unintentional paywall, if that's what you're talking about. I want to say that UPN was an over the air network, but it wasn't over the air everywhere, because it was a new network. So maybe some people needed cable to see it, if they didn't have a local UPN station. <br>
    But it's the same kind of principle. TNG and DS9 were syndicated. Voyager I think was the first one that was launched under a specific network - UPN. But that would be about the same for Enterprise, then. I seem to remember UPN having a different name, too, I dont know....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well It's been 24 hours.

    No official news regarding STD or The Picard teams being sent home. I suppose that means ♥♥♥♥tor von Doomcock's "source" was wrong.

    I'm sure his followers will be greatly disappointed.

    I thought tonight's episode was very good for what it's worth.
    *LOL* I accidentally downvoted this post when I meant to upvote it! I couldn't agree more! I dont know how to reverse my downvote though!
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    #92
    What does that even mean? It's canon beause it's officially produced, and the producers said it's canon. I mean, I dont know what 25% different means, because most Star Treks look different from each other, and they bring new things into the canon. But that doesn't stop it from being canon.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You said it was like a million views, right? That's a lot of people. I think one of the football games last weekend did pretty well, and it got about 2.8 million views. But most of the people who are watching Discovery already have CBS subscriptions, or are pirating the show, so you're going to have a lot of falloff right there. Then, there are many people who might not even know. I didn't know it was on Youtube until maybe episode 4 was out.
    I think people have different understandings of the term "canon." To some canon only means what fits within the established lore but in really it's anything that is either seen on screen or made official by the owner of the IP, in this case CBS.

    The 25% visual difference thing, from my understanding, actually has to do with the profit they can make from merchandising and licensing.

    As far as the YouTube posting goes, I have been a CBS AA subscriber since day one, and have not missed an episode. I never watched it on YouTube.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Voyager and Enterprise were "paywalls" for me as well. While UPN was an over the air network that was available in so few places that it might as well have been a cable network.

    We didn't have cable until my Parents wanted to watch Star Trek Voyager. As soon as Enterprise ended so did the Cable. Paywalls have existed for TV shows for years yet Star Trek is the only one who gets knocked. People celebrated when The Expanse went from one paywall (SyFy) to another (Amazon Prime). I don't remember Battlestar Galactica (SyFy), Star Gate (Showtime, SyFy), Walker Dead (AMC), or the Marvel Shows (Netflix) taking flak for being behind Paywalls.

    In fact, the new Star Wars series on Disney X or whatever it's called hasn't been talked about a lot either.

    Star Trek though, god forbid they don't pretend it's still 1990.
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    #93
    The difference, in my humble opinion, is that TNG-VOY built upon existing canon (TOS) in a progression. Things weaved into the existing framework.

    ENT (and obviously debatable DSC) are supposed to be "catching up" to the TOS foundation. They can build upon untouched topics, sure, but when they step onto something already there, then it's got to "fit". No kidding, it simply must.

    SoOoOoOoO … when CBS says, "See this character is Spock's sister" … c'mon. That's not really building anything, it's trampling on the foundation and forcing it to be something it never was before and for no reasonable explanation. Michael didn't have to be Spock's sister at all. It was an irrelevant point in Season 1 and is a tenuous link only for dramatic effect in Season 2.

    You know?

    EDIT - look, I get it: if CBS says so, then too bad suckah. Yet, I'd wager, if CBS does not cater to majority fan's expectations, then the franchise is in trouble. Like it or not.
    But come onnnn, Scarlett! Michael Burnham by being Spock's foster sister, neither violates canon, nor tramples it. Actually, it does build upon it - with the best example of that being their elaboration on the rift between Sarek and Spock.

    It never really made all that much sense why Sarek would refuse to talk to Spock just because he chose Starfleet Academy over the Vulcan Science Academy. Why? Because he didn't follow tradition? I mean, we're talking about Sarek. He married a human woman, that cant be traditional. But the illumination that Sarek basically tossed Michael's future to the side because he preferred to have Spock join the Vulcan Expeditionary Force, only to have Spock scorn the VSA and the VEF presents an understandable reason why there was a rift.

    I believe that this season might give us an explanation of how the Smiley Shouty Spock of The Cage gave way to the Stoic Spock of the rest of TOS. It is also filling in another interesting gap in the story. Why would Spock sacrifice his own life to send Pike to Talos. I mean, that's illogical to a great degree. But seeing how Pike says, "Starfleet is a promise, I give my life for you, you give your life for me," and how Pike is going out of his way and bending rules and risking his career to make sure no harm comes to Spock, we can totally see why Spock would return the favor and risk his life and career to get Pike back to Talos to live out a happy life.
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    #94
    Yeah that's pretty much what i think too.
    The Cage stands out of place in Trek because it was so weirdly different from anything else. Spock is hardly the Vulcan he is later on, we have a totally different captain and the feel of Starfleet in that episode feels a very different animal to what we're used to.

    By having a character who is a bridge between Spock and the new show we are able to too why such differences might exist and it also give a change to tie the older shows more tightly to later canon stories. Because lets face it, TOS whilst really good, played pretty recklessly with canon and often had stuff that makes zero sense when compared to the rest of the Trek shows/films.
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    #95
    I think people have different understandings of the term "canon." To some canon only means what fits within the established lore but in really it's anything that is either seen on screen or made official by the owner of the IP, in this case CBS.

    The 25% visual difference thing, from my understanding, actually has to do with the profit they can make from merchandising and licensing.

    As far as the YouTube posting goes, I have been a CBS AA subscriber since day one, and have not missed an episode. I never watched it on YouTube.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Voyager and Enterprise were "paywalls" for me as well. While UPN was an over the air network that was available in so few places that it might as well have been a cable network.

    We didn't have cable until my Parents wanted to watch Star Trek Voyager. As soon as Enterprise ended so did the Cable. Paywalls have existed for TV shows for years yet Star Trek is the only one who gets knocked. People celebrated when The Expanse went from one paywall (SyFy) to another (Amazon Prime). I don't remember Battlestar Galactica (SyFy), Star Gate (Showtime, SyFy), Walker Dead (AMC), or the Marvel Shows (Netflix) taking flak for being behind Paywalls.

    In fact, the new Star Wars series on Disney X or whatever it's called hasn't been talked about a lot either.

    Star Trek though, god forbid they don't pretend it's still 1990.
    Here are some interesting things on canon, from the Star Trek canon entry on Wikipedia

    As a rule, all Star Trek television series that aired are considered part of the canon.[2] However, this policy does not make clear which version of the series is the canonical one. For example, the remastered TOS episodes released in 2006 present several visual differences from the episodes originally aired.[3]

    To further complicate matters, it has been noted that Gene Roddenberry was something of a revisionist when it came to canonicity. People who worked with Roddenberry remember that he used to handle canonicity not on a series-by-series basis nor an episode-by-episode basis, but point by point. If he changed his mind on something, or if a fact in one episode contradicted what he considered to be a more important fact in another episode, he had no problem declaring that specific point not canonical.
    ------

    "I would hope there are bright young people, growing up all the time, who will bring to [Star Trek] levels and areas that were beyond me, and I don't feel jealous about that at all. [...] It'll go on, without any of us, and get better and better and better, because that's the... that really is the human condition. It's to improve and improve." - Gene Roddenberry, The Star Trek Saga: From One Generation to the Next, 1988.

    ------

    "There's a good chance that when I'm gone, others will come along and do so well that people will say, 'Oh, that Roddenberry. He was never this good.' But I will be pleased with that statement." - Gene Roddenberry, Los Angeles Times TV Times, article "Star Trek's New Frontier", 1993.



    And very good points on Paywalls. Actually, as I remember now....I think at that time, I did have cable. Our nearest UPN station was in a city an hour away, and you could TECHNICALLY get a signal on a clear day, but you know how that goes.....it all depends.

    I think people tend to complain about obscure paywalls that they aren't likely to have. Many people have had cable, and Netflix, and some people (like me) have Amazon Prime because of Prime membership. But as far as Trek, I dont like it being behind a more obscure paywall - CBS has virtually nothing else that you want to watch it for, if you dont normally watch CBS - but I respect the hustle. CBS is not trying to rebuild Trek, they are trying to build an online subscription service. And they are using their best property - Star Trek, to do it. It's a good business decision, because people are going to want to see new Trek, and now that they are expanding, people are going to be drawn into the Picard series. Some may be drawn into the Jordan Peele Twilight Zone series, either because of Twlight Zone, or Jordan Peele, or both. They're building something, and they dont mind that some fans are upset, as long as they have enough fans subscribing. That's not morally wrong, that's just business. It's been a business from the beginning. Roddenberry didn't make the show for free.
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    #96
    So while we speculate on the success or struggles of CBS All Access it turns they are succeeding. They hit their 4 million subscriber mark ahead of schedule. https://trekmovie.com/2019/02/15/cbs...bscriber-goal/
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    #97
    You could apply the same logic to Discovery fans. There are legitimate reasons for the hate and frustration. Someone using ad homenim attacks because they are angry is bad form but everyone is a tough guy on the Internet so it comes with the territory.
    When posting on the internet though you should always consider your audience.

    It's one thing to call yourself ProtectorzofTRek on Youtube and call anyone who likes Discovery an idiot for doing so (or worse) and drum up clicks for a video that is Anti Discovery.

    But doing the same thing on a forum where the guy/gal you call an idiot is most likely the person you could be teaming with in STO will soon cut you down to size.

    But yeah it is kind of funny how quickly people change when there actually talking to people. One guy I work with forgets he's dealing with people he depends on for a living and will send emails that for lack of a better word are harsh to the person. When they call up to complain to him he suddenly switches to customer service mode and is nice....
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    #98
    So while we speculate on the success or struggles of CBS All Access it turns they are succeeding. They hit their 4 million subscriber mark ahead of schedule. https://trekmovie.com/2019/02/15/cbs...bscriber-goal/
    Lol I got a thumbs down for posting news, that’s some reddit level stuff right there Wink
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    #99
    But come onnnn, Scarlett! Michael Burnham by being Spock's foster sister, neither violates canon, nor tramples it. Actually, it does build upon it - with the best example of that being their elaboration on the rift between Sarek and Spock.

    <snip because I can>
    Although I didn't say violates, I may have implied it. Also, "tramples" may have been hyperbole.

    Upon consideration, you are right that sisterhood is an addition because it's new. Yet, the point I was attempting to make was that connection was unnecessary. Put another way, that connection was made or it's own sake, which, in my opinion, reduces the decades-established idea of "Spock" from TV, movies and books. It's almost lazy in it's application and is not serving as a credible vehicle for engaging story-telling.

    Again, as it's own example, yet one of at least a few others, is what may be breaking down several fan's acceptance of the show as either enjoyable or canonical.

    As for Spock and Sarek's relationship, that can be told without Michael's sisterhood in place and I'm fairly confident about that. Don;t get me wrong, do I care about that family intrigue? Sure, why not: other's people drama is much better than my own Wink But it is relevant from what we know in the current series (so far)? No. Not at all.

    And that's why I still maintain (with a slight tweak):
    That's not really building anything, it's [affecting] the foundation and forcing it to be something it never was before and for no reasonable explanation. Michael didn't have to be Spock's sister at all. It was an irrelevant point in Season 1 and is a tenuous link only for dramatic effect in Season 2.
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    #100
    It's not Patrick Stewart level Star Trek, but it's a good show and season 2 seems to be working hard to impress us. After seeing the 5th episode of season 2, I'm inclined to give it the honest chance to impress us.

    I personally dislike the TOS content more than the Discovery stuff. We grew in the TNG era. That's a hard standard.
    Truth is uncomfortable most of the times. That's why you gotta face it every time.

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    #101
    Although I didn't say violates, I may have implied it. Also, "tramples" may have been hyperbole.

    Upon consideration, you are right that sisterhood is an addition because it's new. Yet, the point I was attempting to make was that connection was unnecessary. Put another way, that connection was made or it's own sake, which, in my opinion, reduces the decades-established idea of "Spock" from TV, movies and books. It's almost lazy in it's application and is not serving as a credible vehicle for engaging story-telling.

    Again, as it's own example, yet one of at least a few others, is what may be breaking down several fan's acceptance of the show as either enjoyable or canonical.

    As for Spock and Sarek's relationship, that can be told without Michael's sisterhood in place and I'm fairly confident about that. Don;t get me wrong, do I care about that family intrigue? Sure, why not: other's people drama is much better than my own Wink But it is relevant from what we know in the current series (so far)? No. Not at all.

    And that's why I still maintain (with a slight tweak):
    I will agree that it was not necessary. I think it does slightly diminish Burnham by giving her this particular link, because there's the temptation to look at her as Spocks sister. But the show is about Burnham, so shes had plenty of time to shine on her own, especially in the first season.

    The second season? Full disclosure: I am so happy we haven't seen Spock yet. There seems to be too much handwringing about him, which distracts from the other characters. But I'm happy with how they're doing it - saving him toward the end, and just using him as a thread that connects the episodes.

    So basically, I agree that the Spock tie was unnecessary, and I agree that at least this season, it's been distracting. The only thing I disagree with is the thought by some that it's just a horrible, franchise crippling decision that ripped a hole in the space time continuum of canon and caused teardrops to appear in the eyes of someone's autographed picture of Gene Roddenberry. And, I do like the depth the choice has brought to Spck, Sarek, and Amanda.