[Novalance]

three dots in that pattern is usually Brainiac right? just saying

[Stormy]

Spock's speech to Burnham was awesome and voiced what everyone has been saying about her for a series and a half. Didn't stop them turning right round and making her an insufferable person again though.

I, too, thoroughly enjoyed Spock's much-needed rant toward his adopted sister. I really wanted to stand up and cheer him on, but decided against it. It is too bad that the writers and creators of the show did not take that speech to heart.

[Morris]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the person in the red angel suit is gonna turn out to be Burnham. It just feels like its winding up to that.

I've been thinking the same thing, given Discovery's Burnham-centricity, but I don't think that it can be her. The red angel helped young Spock to save Burnham when she ran away. It would be impossible for Burnham to save herself after she'd already been killed when she ran away as a child. That being said, the writers on this show might go there anyway, because....Burnham!

[Bridger]

I've been thinking the same thing, given Discovery's Burnham-centricity, but I don't think that it can be her. The red angel helped young Spock to save Burnham when she ran away. It would be impossible for Burnham to save herself after she'd already been killed when she ran away as a child. That being said, the writers on this show might go there anyway, because....Burnham!

Time Travel don't think too much about it.

[Solace]

Time Travel don't think too much about it.

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff

[LogicalLeopard]

Ariam had in one episode more character development than Burnham in two years for one it was awesome and than they killed her of and that sucked.

Her cybernetic implants seem to be more advanced than the Borg from the 24th Century minus the storage issue and the lack of a personal shield and that she can't survive in space.

I can see Section 31 being shutdown after the key item went renegade and their top agents not giving up and keep working on their own and seeing what technology they have on their ships it seems plausible that they can hide themselves very well.

The Admirals being jerk Holograms pleases me, a lot.

Pike is the best character in the show and the show and the show should be about him.

Mine's with cutting blades what is this Battleship?

I'll say this. It's a testament to the writing and acting that they could basically debut a character and kill a character in one episode and make the audience feel it. That was a rough one. We finally got to know Ariam and then she's gone. The open on the beach and the ending were heartwrenching. So was the fact that she was constantly deleting memories, even though I guess we all kind of do it automatically.

Saying Burnham has less character development is just flatly wrong, though. Burnham's been through a rollercoaster, and we've seen her character well fleshed out. People might not like it, but that's different than being developed.


I will say this though.....*LOL* I experienced my first "Shut Up, Burnham" moment, when she's talking to Admiral Cornwell about Spock while she's interrogating him. That's probably because I work in criminal justice, and cant stand when relatives call up and say, "My baby didn't do it." Sure he didn't, Grandma, you were there right? No? *L*

I agree with you on Pike, and it's going to be a shame to let him go. I hope they could hold onto him for another season. Man, I'd be willing to scrap every single project in production, with the exception of Picard, to have a second five year mission with Pike and the Enterprise.

And did those mines explode, too? I wasn't sure, because like you said, buzzsaw mines make no sense.

- - - Updated - - -

It's hard to say that I liked, or disliked this episode. So I took the neutral ground in this vote.

I LOVED Spock telling Burnham how a lot of us have felt about her!

Space Skynet...ok. Like Novalance has alluded, those of us who read may have an idea where this season is going.

I liked getting some of Airiam's backstory, but I wish that it had been scattered throughout previous episodes. By dumping it all in this episode, it makes the emotional impact of her death less earned. Typical for Discovery's writing team though.

I did respect the choice to play the sound of the beach through the end credits. Nice touch, though again, it seemed unearned, given that we had only now just gotten to know Airiam.

Why not beam out Airiam, either from the airlock, or once she was out in space? Why no phasers to deal with the mines...or tractor beams? They seem to ignore available tech to service the poor plot. That is irritating.

The explanation Cornwell gave for leaving the Enterprise out of the war seemed stupid to me. I would think that you'd want to be using your best assets in a time of war, instead of saving them for posterity.

That's all I've got!

Cheers!

Spock's sass is back! *L* I appreciated that very much.

When you say the emotional impact of her death feels less earned, what do you mean by that? I mean, I kind of see it as having an impact, or not having an impact. You can earn me caring about you in just one episode, that just means the writing is good. The fact that we didn't know her for so long makes it more impactful for me, than someone like, say, Tilly. Tilly dies, even though I love her, I'd be shocked, but I dont know if I'd be as struck in the same way as I was Ariam. Sometimes knowing someone less or briefly can really rock you unexpectedly. I've had that happen in real life.

Yeah, the beaming out thing is an excellent point. I dont know if they were being blocked somehow, I'd have to look at it again.

I thought Cornwell was using some of her good old psychology on Pike. I was kind of surprised he fell for it. *L*

[Sul-Matuul]

So first off I really enjoyed that episode.

1) Some really nice interactions between various crew members, and some great background for poor Ariam - such a tragic story for her. There was also some really great banter between the various crew throughout the episode, they are really starting to feel more like they gel together as a crew not just random officers on a ship.

2) The beauty shots of Discovery and the space visuals in general were super-cool and showed off the ship in all its glory properly for once. Nice that they dumped the dark, shadowy visuals of S1 at the end of that season.

3) The major plot is moving along nicely (more on my thoughts below) with a new idea we've not really seen in Trek before I don't think?

4) Spock vs Burnham was very nicely done, it does sort of show her to be flawed in that yes she is arrogant and thinks she can fix everything, but at the end of it all she was not able to do the logical thing despite trying to stick to her Vulcan upbringing all the time. I know people think she's a Mary Sue or whatever but I've never felt that way, she's got flaws and has messed up and been wrong a lot of times. She not always able to fix things and several times has made things worse.

So on the overall plot here's my thoughts on it.

Daedalus is clearly some secret Starfleet or S31 project to create an AI system for defense or threat prevention purposes. I suspect it's based off the original Control program which was only initially an advanced analysis system for assessing military and intelligence data.

Somehow the program has done a Skynet and has become self-aware and is now trying to learn all information it can to improve itself. It's essentially become some sort of exponentially learning living program which i'm guessing has at some point in the future determined that it needs past data to improve itself even more. Perhaps it learned in the future that it could get data from the Sphere if it went to the past, and it created the temporal rift at the Kelpian homeworld specifically to capture and alter a prob from Discovery. I reckon it knew Discovery would be there, it knew it would have the data from the Sphere, and so it knew exactly what Discovery would do upon encountering the rift. In other words it laid a trap to get to Discovery's computer data, via the probe, shuttle and Ariam.

The Red Angel is probably some future person trying to set up a long-play defense against the AI in the hope that they can save the future.
- Save the engineer from the medical frigate.
- Save the WWIII refugees and create what is essentially a hidden human colony, safe from any future attack as a failsafe?
- Cause the Kelpians to evolve and thus cause Saru to become more advanced as a predator.
- Use Spock's visions as a way to recruit him to be among the Discovery crew?
It looks like it's all for a larger purpose.

Now a really wild idea I've had is what if the Short Trek with Discover lost in space with an AI in control and alone is what happens to a shard of Daedalus/Control? You couldn't kill it as Starfleet rules would probably consider it a sentient entity....so....can you get away with locking it into a ship in deep space?

Edit:
Or......an even better idea; Ariam's memories she downloaded into the Discovery computer become the AI Zora...

[Strathkin]

I'll say this. It's a testament to the writing and acting that they could basically debut a character and kill a character in one episode and make the audience feel it. That was a rough one. We finally got to know Ariam and then she's gone. The open on the beach and the ending were heartwrenching. So was the fact that she was constantly deleting memories, even though I guess we all kind of do it automatically.

Saying Burnham has less character development is just flatly wrong, though. Burnham's been through a rollercoaster, and we've seen her character well fleshed out.

Well I too was honestly very shocked, she was there since the start of Season One, yet never really even got to know her. She should have been an Engineer, in a Red Shirt, cause as soon as we got to know her--she's gone.

[Shadowmeph]

it is almost like t his is the other time line just because they are talking more of sec 31 just like one of there newer star trek movies it almost seems to me that they are trying to mix in that time line with others which to me is a little confusing

[Morris]

When you say the emotional impact of her death feels less earned, what do you mean by that? I mean, I kind of see it as having an impact, or not having an impact. You can earn me caring about you in just one episode, that just means the writing is good. The fact that we didn't know her for so long makes it more impactful for me, than someone like, say, Tilly. Tilly dies, even though I love her, I'd be shocked, but I dont know if I'd be as struck in the same way as I was Ariam. Sometimes knowing someone less or briefly can really rock you unexpectedly. I've had that happen in real life.

I mean that had Airiam been established as a core character earlier on, we the audience would have bonded with her and been more emotionally invested in her survival.

Until this episode, Airiam was the member of the bridge crew who had been infected by Brainiac. She had become a pending threat to Discovery, but we had no emotional investment in her. This episode gave us a reason to care, then immediately took it away. Fine, I didn't really know her anyway. She's a sad story, but not a loss that I really care about.

If she had been established earlier on, and I had gotten to know her better, I would of cared for her, and been hurt by her loss. That's what I would of considered GOOD writing! This episode was NOT good writing, in my humble opinion.

[Sul-Matuul]

it is almost like t his is the other time line just because they are talking more of sec 31 just like one of there newer star trek movies it almost seems to me that they are trying to mix in that time line with others which to me is a little confusing

I think it's just similarity in the basic plots.

In ST09 and ST:I2D Section 31 was basically much more militant and controlling of policy in Starfleet on account of the risks Nero's incursion revealed. They were militarising Starfleet specifically because in their timeline the destruction of Vulcan has serious messed up the stability of the galaxy and warfare is much more likely. Admiral Marcus pretty much states this in the movie in fact.

In DSC though we are seeing a much earlier iteration of S31 than we are familiar with from DS9 where they were more commonly seen. They are clearly a different entity at this point in time; much more open and known about, more militaristic like the Kelvin version with advanced tech and a lot of power over Starfleet's tactical and strategic decisions.
I'm guessing the S2plot is going to show them go seriously wrong, considering it looks now like they have been taken over by a genocidal AI machine entity.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean that had Airiam been established as a core character earlier on, we the audience would have bonded with her and been more emotionally invested in her survival.

Until this episode, Airiam was the member of the bridge crew who had been infected by Brainiac. She had become a pending threat to Discovery, but we had no emotional investment in her. This episode gave us a reason to care, then immediately took it away. Fine, I didn't really know her anyway. She's a sad story, but not a loss that I really care about.

If she had been established earlier on, and I had gotten to know her better, I would of cared for her, and been hurt by her loss. That's what I would of considered GOOD writing! This episode was NOT good writing, in my humble opinion.

I actually think it works quite well how they did it tbh.
The episode opens with us getting some serious backstory for her and it's pretty sad. It makes us realise she's had a rough life and is just doing whatever she can to survive and get on with things; but she still suffers from her past losses.

So we immediately feel that she's got something going for her, we know she is a threat to the ship and crew but we see the humanity there fighting it.

Then to kill her off when we thought at the start we were giving her a change is more jarring i think. It's such a sudden change from the slightly positive opening we had that it pushes the loss to the front.

Sure we could have built her up over time and it would have been just as powerful, but I think that stark contrast between a sense of hope for her crushed by deathly defeat is pretty powerful. And the final scene of her memories fading as she shuts down connects both ends of the episode nicely.

[Morris]

I actually think it works quite well how they did it tbh.
The episode opens with us getting some serious backstory for her and it's pretty sad. It makes us realise she's had a rough life and is just doing whatever she can to survive and get on with things; but she still suffers from her past losses.

So we immediately feel that she's got something going for her, we know she is a threat to the ship and crew but we see the humanity there fighting it.

Then to kill her off when we thought at the start we were giving her a change is more jarring i think. It's such a sudden change from the slightly positive opening we had that it pushes the loss to the front.

Sure we could have built her up over time and it would have been just as powerful, but I think that stark contrast between a sense of hope for her crushed by deathly defeat is pretty powerful. And the final scene of her memories fading as she shuts down connects both ends of the episode nicely.

The way that it was done, the episode started off like a memorial...you knew, because of the way they were dumping a major chunk of backstory for Airiam on us, that she was as good as dead by the end of the episode. Shows routinely memorialize major characters on their farewell episodes, and that is where I felt a disconnect. Airiam was not a major character. We barely knew anything about her...until this episode. Her story became a sad episode instead of the tragic death of a long time friend. I never had the time to establish enough of a relationship with Airiam to really care about her. Up until this episode, she was only a bridge crew member who had become infected by some nefarious entity from the future, making her a threat to ship and crew. Now I'm suppose to care about her, because of one episode of memorialization? Why? She's a plot device in the storyline, nothing more.

I respect yours, and anyone else's opinion on this. Some may have experienced this episode as effective storytelling. I am not one of those. This episode seemed lazy, and the emotional moments felt unearned...to me. That's my opinion. We all have one, and I respect that others may not necessarily reflect mine. To each their own!

Cheers!

[Three of Seven]

Don't mind me, just suffocating over here, you have your little moment, while I just die here! Don't check on me, or transport me back, nope, you shoot that rifle!

[LogicalLeopard]

I mean that had Airiam been established as a core character earlier on, we the audience would have bonded with her and been more emotionally invested in her survival.

Until this episode, Airiam was the member of the bridge crew who had been infected by Brainiac. She had become a pending threat to Discovery, but we had no emotional investment in her. This episode gave us a reason to care, then immediately took it away. Fine, I didn't really know her anyway. She's a sad story, but not a loss that I really care about.

If she had been established earlier on, and I had gotten to know her better, I would of cared for her, and been hurt by her loss. That's what I would of considered GOOD writing! This episode was NOT good writing, in my humble opinion.

Okay, that clears it up for me. I was well invested in her just off the strength of this episode, and the loss hurt. I respect that you weren't, I just thought most people would be. I could be very wrong about that.

Then again, I just saw Spocks death again in TWOK a few days ago...

EDIT: I went back to upvote you and I did NOT mean to downvote you! Fat fingers, a cell phone, and 134 am. Does anyone know how to reverse those? I haven't figured it out yet....

- - - Updated - - -

I actually think it works quite well how they did it tbh.
The episode opens with us getting some serious backstory for her and it's pretty sad. It makes us realise she's had a rough life and is just doing whatever she can to survive and get on with things; but she still suffers from her past losses.

So we immediately feel that she's got something going for her, we know she is a threat to the ship and crew but we see the humanity there fighting it.

Then to kill her off when we thought at the start we were giving her a change is more jarring i think. It's such a sudden change from the slightly positive opening we had that it pushes the loss to the front.

Sure we could have built her up over time and it would have been just as powerful, but I think that stark contrast between a sense of hope for her crushed by deathly defeat is pretty powerful. And the final scene of her memories fading as she shuts down connects both ends of the episode nicely.

Yeah, that's how I feel. You know what it reminded me of? Now I know this might offend some people, but I thought the Kirk death scene was really impactful in Star Trek Into Darkness, at least for me. I have always looked at those films as an alternate study of Kirk, and when he was dying, I felt sad because he was a young guy with so much potential just trying to figure it out, and he was dying before he could become the Kirk we know.

Ariam went from being a questionable visual gimmick to a really interesting character to dead...real quick. It was a wild ride.

[Morris]

EDIT: I went back to upvote you and I did NOT mean to downvote you! Fat fingers, a cell phone, and 134 am. Does anyone know how to reverse those? I haven't figured it out yet....

OMG!!!! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!!! I'VE NEVER BEEN DOWNVOTED BEFORE!!!...I'm just kidding! No worries, it's all good! I appreciate the intention, if not the end result, lol!

Cheers!!!