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[Discussion] - S2E14 "Such Sweet Sorrow Part 2" Discussion

Started By:
Sammygm, Thu 18 Apr, 2019 10:13 PM
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View Poll Results: What did you think of the Episode?

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  • Liked it

    20 71.43%
  • Neither liked or disliked it

    3 10.71%
  • Disliked it

    5 17.86%
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    #46
    Control was a nanotechnolgy AI with no connections to Borg and just... died. For all the trouble it caused it died just like that. So Federation already kinda had developed something like the Borg... Eh.
    The hint i got was that it wasn't really defeated. It wasn't just one person (Leyland) it was a computer program and there's no reason for it to all be in one place.
    And they never showed that admiral's face in the final few scene of the interrogations for some reason. Does that hint that there was more to those scenes that first meets they eye?
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    #47
    The hint i got was that it wasn't really defeated. It wasn't just one person (Leyland) it was a computer program and there's no reason for it to all be in one place.
    And they never showed that admiral's face in the final few scene of the interrogations for some reason. Does that hint that there was more to those scenes that first meets they eye?
    I really didn’t think of the ending in such detail, since I assumed this debriefing was classified in some fashion, that perhaps could be why the Admiral’s face was hidden.

    From what I understood, control would stop evolving if it had no means to access the sphere data. Since it still would be around, it definitely would read all the lost in action logs, after action reports and condolences letters to families. I suppose this way it would have suffered a decaying dormant death, or so I assume was the intention of the writers.

    Ofcourse, since they left it as a cliff hanger they have several ways to pull this up in season 3, like how it stayed dormant in Starfleet systems till 32nd century?
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    #48
    The fact that we are forced to assume, or make excuses for the story, in order for it to make sense, is a HUGE problem!
    I don't feel that I've made any unreasonable excuses for the story so far - I may need to re-watch the show to confirm that though. Fandom is a very personal thing, so it's actually pretty awesome that we can have these differing opinions and discuss them in such depth. I've found no part of Discovery to be so out of place that it jarred me out of enjoying it in the moment. A franchise like Star Trek, with literally hundreds of hours of content (tv series only), is bound to be full of plot points and stories that can't be fully fleshed out and rely on the willingness of the individual viewer and community to fill the gaps.

    The sheer quantity of Star Trek content makes it difficult for new shows to stay within the bounds of canon - something which I think Discovery has navigated really well for the most part. They explained the absence of any reference to Discovery or Michael throughout any other series in a really satisfying way. Obviously we know why Michael wasn't mentioned in previous iterations of Trek; whether you like it or not we the audience must choose whether or not to make an excuse for the story in this case. I do think the show gave us a really satisfying and justifiable reason as to why Spock, Pike or any other longstanding Trek character never mentions Discovery though:
    Classic Trek TiMe TrAvEl!

    Things I liked:
    • Sweet battle
    • Blue phasers
    • Pike
    • Michael/Spock relationship
    • Stamets/Culber relationship
    • Admiral Cornwell
    Dentari
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    #49
    I don't feel that I've made any unreasonable excuses for the story so far - I may need to re-watch the show to confirm that though. Fandom is a very personal thing, so it's actually pretty awesome that we can have these differing opinions and discuss them in such depth. I've found no part of Discovery to be so out of place that it jarred me out of enjoying it in the moment. A franchise like Star Trek, with literally hundreds of hours of content (tv series only), is bound to be full of plot points and stories that can't be fully fleshed out and rely on the willingness of the individual viewer and community to fill the gaps.

    The sheer quantity of Star Trek content makes it difficult for new shows to stay within the bounds of canon - something which I think Discovery has navigated really well for the most part. They explained the absence of any reference to Discovery or Michael throughout any other series in a really satisfying way. Obviously we know why Michael wasn't mentioned in previous iterations of Trek; whether you like it or not we the audience must choose whether or not to make an excuse for the story in this case. I do think the show gave us a really satisfying and justifiable reason as to why Spock, Pike or any other longstanding Trek character never mentions Discovery though:
    Classic Trek TiMe TrAvEl!

    Things I liked:
    • Sweet battle
    • Blue phasers
    • Pike
    • Michael/Spock relationship
    • Stamets/Culber relationship
    • Admiral Cornwell
    I think tbh its easy to argue about DSC's story because it's the current new "thing" in Trek but i'm almost certain that if we went back through the thousands of hours of Trek TV shows and films there would be tonnes of questionable moments of writing and plot holes and areas of canon seemingly ignoring other areas etc.
    It's the nature of such a massive universe that has been created that the creators on the shows/films cannot be expected to learn every minutiae of detail to match it all up perfectly; and tbh Trek has ALWAYS played it loose with canon continuity, even back to the TOS era.

    Coming up with ideas to link story areas on your own is half of the fun tbh, you can create your own in-universe reasons why things happen for your own enjoyment.
    SulMatuul
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    #50
    I think the writers of the show just finally saw how they can't juggle through already existing Canon any further and that they also need more breathing room in terms of creativity and be able to create their own Canon rather than frustratingly stuff your stories in an already set time era.

    I just wish the series woulda continued immediately post nemesis. But I'm curious to see how they treat Star trek in 31st/32nd Century and definitely now they have the full Canon freedom.

    As far as the series ending goes, an episode of Star Trek Galactica. I'm not even sure if I liked the episode. Control was a nanotechnolgy AI with no connections to Borg and just... died. For all the trouble it caused it died just like that. So Federation already kinda had developed something like the Borg... Eh.

    The action was what the episode was all about. If anything I think they did a good re-imagining of constitution class, bridge, corridors and the color schemes minus the r2d2 and Galactica viper launching stuff.

    I really loved Anson Mount, Number One and Spock. Captain Pike series would do good. There is a lot to explore here, Captain Pike did serve as a Starfleet Captain for 15 years and there's so much to do. More than that, they were true to the character's canon and I feel confident they would be able to work and build up on him.

    You know, honestly, I'm pretty seriously thinking that the time jump was the plan for Discovery from the beginning.

    So, initially, the former producer who jumped ship early, I forget his name, wanted an anthology series, right? The first season fits that perfectly, it's the story of Michael Burnham, Starfleet's first mutineer, and how she redeemed herself. But the powers that be dont like that, and want a series out of it. I think the remaining people are like, well, man, what are we going to do? We've kind of painted ourselves into a corner, because if this goes on longer than a year, its going to butt right up against TOS. So I think someone said, what if the ship gets stranded reaaaaallly far away in time, like Voyager, but now you've got this whole different playground. And then they started asking questions like, "How is a 23rd century Starship going to make it in the far future?<Br>

    So the first thing they added was the spore drive. It makes travel negligible, so you dont have to worry about transwarp conduits and the 33G version of that. They revealed that in the first season, and when people complained about it not synching, they kept saying, "Dont worry, it'll all fit." The second thing they added was the sphere data, so that it would be easy for the Discovery to update and adapt to things, synchronizing a wide amount of past data. Past data which probably includes data on cultures that are much more advanced than the Federation. I mean, if that sphere studied someone like, say, the Metrons or Iconians, it could have a lot of practical information, because some species are millennia ahead anyway.

    The next thing might be the ship going AI. Not sure about that one, because the author who wrote it, that might have been his idea alone. Speaking of AIs though, I think we all compared Control the Borg, but that wasn't the plan. It was just an out of control AI. Standard sci-fi fare.
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    #51
    The show as a whole was very good, the cast did extremely good at acting and each season plot was good, as for the last episode my ONLY complaint would be that the battle was to busy with the drones, and not enough D7 action in it. overall i give the episode 8.5/10 and the entire show a 9/10
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    #52
     –  Last edited by Strathkin; Tue 23 Apr, 2019 10:18 AM.
    Discovery Season 2 Synopsis ▬ a nice font.

    Despite the disclaimer in thread, this contains backward looking events, yet reveals things for those who missed...

    Star Trek Netflix on Instagram ▬ showing a Trailer for the Season 2 Finale.
    Star Trek Netflix General Site Instagram ▬ to scroll down images/video for a few short video clips like:
    ╘ Workplace Conflict Resolution with Commander Saru.
    ╘ Starfleet Technical Order - TM:063RGIM-1218 - Standard Issue Tricorder
    ╘ Starfleet Technical Order - TM:362RGIM-519 - Standard Fleet Communicator
    ╘ Starfleet Technical Order - TM:379RGIM-75 - Standard Issue Phaser
    ╘ Spore Jump 35: 071-MARK, Spore Jump 36: 071 MARK, Spore Jump 37:071 MARK, Spore Jump 38:071.
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    #53
    I need to write out a few thoughts on one of the issues that people are complaining about with the plot.

    Issue - Why did Discovery have to go to the future if they killed Leland/Control

    Answer - I was under the impression that Leland was future Control that came back with the probe and that the Control from the current timeline was relegated to the S31 space station. Future Leland/Control wanted the sphere data so he could merge it with present day Control and ensure it’s evolution. When Georgiou killed Leland she neutralized future Control but in order to make sure present day Control or any other AI never had a chance to use the sphere data, they took it to the future.

    Now I could be completely wrong about this but ever since Leland was infected I assumed it was future Control that hitched a ride on Airiam.
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    #54
    I think once future Control (FC) was around it pretty much became one entity, but even if they destroyed Control completely there was still the risk of other AI systems or even some offshoot of Control's initial programming becoming a threat again.
    And we never found out if all of Control was in one place tbh, the Leyland entity could have just been one part of it, the bipedal avatar it chose to use to try and gain the sphere data. I'm gonna guess it's main program was safely hidden somewhere else.

    I think that Dr Burnham indicated that the future she saw was still dominated by a Control like AI killing all life, and that was BEFORE Burnham knew to send the signals herself to start things in motion. So it's possible the whole future war is a bit like in Terminator where it was always inevitable, but exactly how it happened would be changed slightly. Just think, if it was not for Burnahm creating the red burst at Kelpia(?) then Pike would not have taken the shuttle to the wormhole and the future AI machine that got through would not have learned of the sphere data. And without that knowledge FC would have no reason to push so strongly against the DSC era Federation! Heck if it were not for the creation of the suit initially then nobody would have seen the future and tried to stop it and set the whole series of event in play!
    It's a right old barrel of predestination paradoxes! eek!
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    #55
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    #56
    After having seen a lot of the Discoprise now I'm going to go with the probably controversial opinion that I prefer it to the TOS Connie. I love the look of the ship and the bridge is a great merge of modern and 60s imaginings of the future.

    While I obviously never want anyone to die, the death of Cornwell didn't really affect me as I always saw her as the antithesis of what Starfleet should be morally, with her decision to blow up Qo'noS and her comment earlier in the series that nation building wasn't pretty when justifying the actions of Section 31.

    While I love the designs of Discovery it's very irritating to see the producers being so happy that now they're finally free of canon when they've basically spent two seasons ripping it apart. If they're that happy why not just set Disco in the future in the first place so we could avoid all this mayhem? Anyway, that being said, it is what it is and the second season was far superior to the first, mainly because of Pike, so it'll be interesting to see if the third season can be as good without him. We still have Saru and Tilly though, and Reno, so there's still hope.