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[Spoiler] - Picard S1-E01 - Remembrance

Started By:
Petrarch, Wed 22 Jan, 2020 4:33 PM
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View Poll Results: What did you think of Remembrance?

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  • I liked it!

    33 84.62%
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    #31
    Didn't they explicitly say at Daystrom the synthetics were not sapient like Data (and Lore) were? It's not surprising that the synthetics wouldn't have been considered to fall under the umbrella, especially after an apparent mass defect led to catastrophe.

    It's also not surprising that the RSE wouldn't be able to evacuate a star system in a timely fashion. Would the US Navy be able to evacuate the American population from North America? Both the JJ movies and STO seem to imply a massive loss of life.
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    #32
    Sure because it is faster to build 1000 ferries instead of using the thousands of ships available to Starfleet and the Romulan Empire not to mention all the Federation Civilan Ships.
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    #33
    The fact that the Synths weren't as advanced as Data pretty much confirms an outside force instigated the attack on mars, I have a crack theory that it may have been a faction of Vulcans who did it, logic extremists perhaps?

    As for why the romulans couldn't evacuate themselves, I think it was both number of people needing to be evacuated and possible internal infighting. Perhaps senators and colonial governors saw this as an advantage to gain power and purposely withheld ships and assets to defend their own systems, leaving the empire unable to implement an effective evacuation operation on their own.
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    #34
    What do you guys think of the sound?
    I think whoever was in charge should be fired, the sound is terrible!
    SRclR4z
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    #35
     –  Last edited by Draco; Mon 27 Jan, 2020 5:10 PM.
    Sure because it is faster to build 1000 ferries instead of using the thousands of ships available to Starfleet and the Romulan Empire not to mention all the Federation Civilan Ships.
    But even the Enterprise D could only hold a few thousand people and that was one of the biggest ships out there. It makes sense to me that you might need to build a ton of ships purposely designed for hauling large numbers of people. Probably needed them to be atmosphere capable for one thing - filling a ship with people a few at a time using transporters would take forever...

    And even if you could transport the population using existing ships - the impact that would have on commerce, the economy, security etc (those existing ships had 'jobs' to do) could very well be a lot bigger and more disruptive than building new ships...

    Anyway, that is how it works in my headcanon Smile

    - - - Updated - - -

    The fact that the Synths weren't as advanced as Data pretty much confirms an outside force instigated the attack on mars, I have a crack theory that it may have been a faction of Vulcans who did it, logic extremists perhaps?
    I can't imagine Vulcans being behind this - that seems totally out of character... I was vaguely wondering if it might have been some Romulan faction - I could totally see the Tal Shiar (or some splinter group) be ruthless enough if it meant getting more power or whatever...
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    #36
     –  Last edited by Sul-Matuul; Mon 27 Jan, 2020 5:11 PM.
    The fact that the Synths weren't as advanced as Data pretty much confirms an outside force instigated the attack on mars, I have a crack theory that it may have been a faction of Vulcans who did it, logic extremists perhaps?

    As for why the romulans couldn't evacuate themselves, I think it was both number of people needing to be evacuated and possible internal infighting. Perhaps senators and colonial governors saw this as an advantage to gain power and purposely withheld ships and assets to defend their own systems, leaving the empire unable to implement an effective evacuation operation on their own.
    I'm pretty sure the reason for the request for help is that they simply couldn't do it in time and had no option but to ask.

    Imagine a real world example where the whole of the USA needs to be evacuated within a few month or so.

    1) half the government would deny it or simply claim it was x,y, z propaganda against them.
    2) different groups within government would all clamor for control of the situation, playing for political power rather than think of saving lives.
    3) when it becomes clear there actually is a threat the government spends more time arguing and debating how to act, wasting even more time.
    4) most of your capacity to evacuate is actually woefully inadequate - military ships are too small, civilian ships too slow and small as well. Even with every single vessel and aircraft you have it's not enough. So you need to ask for help from elsewhere.
    5) you've annoyed and alienated most potential allies through years of political games, lack of respect for other countries, insulting other leaders etc... Nobody wants to help you.
    6) finally people agree to help but where do you move the refugees to? Suddenly the very places you stopped people travelling to your own country from are supposed to take your own people en-mass as refugees and for an indeterminate time period. You won't even have resources to pay for the assistance
    7) greed and the corruption of power means some people in the top of the food chain have been able to get out ahead of the game; even exploiting the situation. Those left are going to be poor, abandoned and helpless.
    ....
    .....
    You can see how this would play out even on the scale of a country. Imagine a whole star system and others around it too.

    As to the capacity to move the number of people:

    A Galaxy class can carry around 10,000 people for short haul journeys. Lets assume it's taking people around 50LY away for a safe distance. (the rough size of are a supernova tends to affect is between 50-100LY based on real life observations so this is going for the minimum safe distance).

    So you can move 10,000 people at a time and it's going to take you 12 days to get 50LY at warp 9.
    Then it takes you 12 days to get back to Romulus;; that's a 24 day trip per 10,000 refugees.

    There are say 10(?) Galaxy sized vessels at the time of this event (complete guess, we have no numbers for this.) That means you can move 100,000 people every 24 days.
    You can fit 15 trips into the year long time period you have before the blast wave reaches Romulus.
    Using only those Galaxy class sized ships you can move 1.5 million people the required distance in a year.
    Romulus has a population of around 18 Billion (with extras on Remus, any other planets in the star system, plus any nearby minor star systems).

    Using only those Galaxy sized ships it would take 12 THOUSAND YEARS to evacuate the minimum population at risk.

    Now even if you add in every single Romulan, Federation and civilian vessel in the Beta Quadrant you are still looking at being woefully short of the capacity needed. Even using 1000 Galaxy sized vessels you still need 12 years!!!!

    The size of this evacuation is staggeringly huge.
    SulMatuul
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    #37
     –  Last edited by Bridger; Mon 27 Jan, 2020 7:42 PM.
    They said they had to evacuate 900 Millions.

    That also means that each of those 1000 ferries needed to carrie 900000 people.

    Edit: Sorry they wanted to build 10000 ferries.
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    #38
    Isn't transwarp beaming a thing in this version of Star Trek? Spock left this timeline with the knowledge to give to Kelvin Scotty? If not already done, why not just upgrade all transporters across the Federation and Romulus? Science only exists as a source of McGuffins in Kurtzman Trek, and it doesn't even have to make logical sense. It just has to be a semi-scientific sounding, magical process to move the story along, then dropped and forgotten until needed again, due to lack of creativity with the writing team.
    Morris
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    #39
    if you know Scotty he always had a tendency to hold secrets so it might exist but I am pretty sure hoe would have kept allot to himself
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    #40
    I'm pretty sure the reason for the request for help is that they simply couldn't do it in time and had no option but to ask.

    Imagine a real world example where the whole of the USA needs to be evacuated within a few month or so.

    1) half the government would deny it or simply claim it was x,y, z propaganda against them.
    2) different groups within government would all clamor for control of the situation, playing for political power rather than think of saving lives.
    3) when it becomes clear there actually is a threat the government spends more time arguing and debating how to act, wasting even more time.
    4) most of your capacity to evacuate is actually woefully inadequate - military ships are too small, civilian ships too slow and small as well. Even with every single vessel and aircraft you have it's not enough. So you need to ask for help from elsewhere.
    5) you've annoyed and alienated most potential allies through years of political games, lack of respect for other countries, insulting other leaders etc... Nobody wants to help you.
    6) finally people agree to help but where do you move the refugees to? Suddenly the very places you stopped people travelling to your own country from are supposed to take your own people en-mass as refugees and for an indeterminate time period. You won't even have resources to pay for the assistance
    7) greed and the corruption of power means some people in the top of the food chain have been able to get out ahead of the game; even exploiting the situation. Those left are going to be poor, abandoned and helpless.
    ....
    .....
    You can see how this would play out even on the scale of a country. Imagine a whole star system and others around it too.

    As to the capacity to move the number of people:

    A Galaxy class can carry around 10,000 people for short haul journeys. Lets assume it's taking people around 50LY away for a safe distance. (the rough size of are a supernova tends to affect is between 50-100LY based on real life observations so this is going for the minimum safe distance).

    So you can move 10,000 people at a time and it's going to take you 12 days to get 50LY at warp 9.
    Then it takes you 12 days to get back to Romulus;; that's a 24 day trip per 10,000 refugees.

    There are say 10(?) Galaxy sized vessels at the time of this event (complete guess, we have no numbers for this.) That means you can move 100,000 people every 24 days.
    You can fit 15 trips into the year long time period you have before the blast wave reaches Romulus.
    Using only those Galaxy class sized ships you can move 1.5 million people the required distance in a year.
    Romulus has a population of around 18 Billion (with extras on Remus, any other planets in the star system, plus any nearby minor star systems).

    Using only those Galaxy sized ships it would take 12 THOUSAND YEARS to evacuate the minimum population at risk.

    Now even if you add in every single Romulan, Federation and civilian vessel in the Beta Quadrant you are still looking at being woefully short of the capacity needed. Even using 1000 Galaxy sized vessels you still need 12 years!!!!

    The size of this evacuation is staggeringly huge.
    You wrote a perfectly understandly text, I love it. Wink great work
    Emmy
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    #41
    So I've actually been rewatching TNG in preparation for Picard (should have started it sooner, even, only to season 4, though part of that is due to just how bad the first 2 seasons are that I had to stop and take breaks), and I have to wonder if some of you are even watching the same Star trek as me. Regarding the vision of Star Trek, Gene left fairly early into TNG, and it shows, that's when it stopped being god awful, so most of this vision of star Trek is NOT Gene's vision, hell DS9 would never have gotten approved of, and he was trying to sue to block the release of Undiscovered Country when he died.

    As for the more overall moral of Star Trek, the point has never been that the future of the Human race is all sunshine and roses; the point has been that we have the power to better ourselves, as well as exploring the means for doing so. Since Data and his progeny are put into focus here, maybe it would be prudent to see what he himself said about that "It is the struggle itself that is most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards."

    Yeah the Federation is kinda awful at the moment, but it's never been perfect; the Maquis are evidence enough of that, coming about because the Federation would rather abandon its own people than risk conflict protecting them. Stuff like that and their lackluster initial dealings with Dominion aggression among a slew of minor incidents could make you wonder if the Federation is truly pacifistic, or if their moral superiority is just a veneer covering a fear of conflict. I'd be unsurprised if a future episode of Picard cites the Prime Directive and the notion of not interfering with the internal affairs of others as an excuse for the pullout from assisting the Romulans; it wouldn't be the first time that was twisted into a flimsy excuse to make something "not our problem"

    Through ALL of the federation's missteps and imperfections, though, what HAS been carried is the ACTUAL moral fortitude of the individuals Star Trek follows. Even if the group as a whole has failed, or didn't step up (ie. the Federation or Starfleet) these people ARE willing and able to, and its the willingness of the individual to try and make a difference against all odds that's important.


    Whatever the case, one episode in, it's too early to tell where Star trek Picard is going with this, but the trailers seem to indicate that's where they are going with this with Picard and his merry band of rogues being the individuals willing to step up to the challenge when nobody else will..

    Science only exists as a source of McGuffins in Kurtzman Trek, and it doesn't even have to make logical sense. It just has to be a semi-scientific sounding, magical process to move the story along, then dropped and forgotten until needed again, due to lack of creativity with the writing team.
    That's always been the case, really, and it's not a lack of creativity, it's that the writers aren't scientists, and this is a space opera, not a hard SF show; there's no scientific advisers around telling them firing a science beam from the deflector isn't going to solve this weeks nonsensical problem when the idea of organic matter breaking down at the subatomic level and people transforming into a different species is a ridiculous notion anyway. Ironically, the later Voyager and Enterprise series were better about reusing last season's macguffins, and neither were as good as TNG and DS9, and the Voyager was the USS Reset Button.

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    ANYWAY, I'm disappointed Picard opened on a regular episode not a feature length, because I feel like they haven't actually finished setting up the premise; they'd rather dangle a thousand tantalizing loose ends in front of us, but overall It was enjoyable. I'm staying optimistic, but I'll reserve judgement until we've actually seen a little bit of it. I do wish we'd gotten a few more Short Treks to tie in with Picard.

    it is a bit of a shame Picard didn't mention the Khitomer Accords when the reporter mentioned the historical animosity between the Federation and the Romulans.
    CurzonPeers