[Jackie Weaver]

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msi...0&source=embed

its bloody spreading everywhere, will the whole of the UK be engulfed too? :/

[Jon Thomas]

I still don't understand why people are rioting. Can someone take a couple minutes and explain please?

[Burtonshaw]

A few weeks ago a man was shot by the police and killed. There was a quite vigil in Tottenham on Saturday night.

Some yobs heard about it, and decided that they wanted to start setting things on fire, and cause a riot. For this they needed a cause. The yobs decided that the guy they never knew being killed by the police was reason enough to do whatever they wanted.

After seeing that people in Tottenham got away with it, other yobs decided "this is great, we can do anything without retribution" and started rioting in other parts of the country.

I say get the guns out, form a line and tell them to go the **** home or get f***ed by the military. This will either cause civil war, or get these frickin yobs to pack it in and go home. Personally i would take the risk and do it, as in all likelihood it would not escalate further.

[Burtonshaw]

By the way, it is my opinion that the local residents of the areas effected should band together and fight the yobs off. it is what i would do. It is also what used to happen when this nation was great, oh how far we have gone from then.....

[Soundwave]

I think there's two reasons - the conscious reasons, and the unconscious reasons.

The conscious reasons are what BurtonShaw described. The shooting and then pointless yobbery.

The unconscious reasons are a lot more complex and I suggest reading the following news article for a decent summary:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/au...cial-exclusion

Before people jump on the article title, give it a chance. I am by no means a bleeding heart liberal. I am merely suggesting that unless we sort out our country then events like this will just keep happening because the people on the bottom rung have nothing to lose. Because of the failure of capitalism and our Governments that bottom rung are gaining more numbers as unemployment rises and the cost of living rises.

I'm so glad I didn't vote Con-Dem, so now I can sit in my armchair looking all smug (although of course the joke is on me and all of us as the world economy collapses ).

[Soundwave]

By the way, it is my opinion that the local residents of the areas effected should band together and fight the yobs off. it is what i would do. It is also what used to happen when this nation was great, oh how far we have gone from then.....

This is why people don't do that:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-14471405

[Grace Pryde]

I'm so glad I didn't vote Con-Dem, so now I can sit in my armchair looking all smug (although of course the joke is on me and all of us as the world economy collapses ).

I don't profess to know what difference in this current situation voting for Labour would have done. But I do know that historically, the Conservatives have always been better at sorting out the country's finances. Labour generally tries to pay it's way out of debt with more debt.

As for the riots. It's senseless violence plain and simple. It's times like this that I believe we ought to bring back national service....

[Soundwave]

I don't profess to know what difference in this current situation voting for Labour would have done. But I do know that historically, the Conservatives have always been better at sorting out the country's finances. Labour generally tries to pay it's way out of debt with more debt.

Nah that's a false conclusion. After WW2 Labour assumed power because they had better plans for bringing the country out of its war-torn condition. They put the country back on its feet, not the Conservatives.

As for the current recession plans - Conservatives wanted, and are making, huge cuts. It is their belief that you cut and rebuild. On the other hand Labour wanted to keep money invested in our services because it is their belief that keeping money flowing in will strengthen the economy even though we'd be getting in more debt for a time.

The Conservatives plan - is deplorable because only the richer people benefit from it. They can afford to pay for private care if they need to and they have assets to sell off if they require funds. The poor people, who outnumber the rich people remember, have a reduction in services across the board. There's basically no regard for the welfare of people and it is wrong.

Sure it might make sense to cut and rebuild, but a lot of people will die (not an over-exaggeration) and suffer in the process. It is the duty of the citizens with more resources to take care of the people with less. THAT is the kind of community we lack in Britain.

As for the riots. It's senseless violence plain and simple. It's times like this that I believe we ought to bring back national service....

I agree it senseless and disgusting. The people do not consciously know why they are rioting. I am a firm believer that people should overcome their need for wanton destruction regardless of their socioeconomic situation. However, the situation is not so cut and dried:

There are two camps brewing. It would seem one group are saying "It's because of social deprivation!" And the other camp are saying "There is no reason for it! Burn them all!"

I would go so far as to say that BOTH camps are correct. The people rioting and looting (remember the article I posted above is about looting, not rioting) have committed crimes and should be punished. No question about that. But also there are reasons why this has happened. They might not be conscious, the people rioting might not be aware of why, but social deprivation and exclusion play a huge role in behaviour.

To sum up my lengthy post (sorry!) I'll finish by saying: If the government made the right decisions, and made the under class and working class feel valued, cared for, and wanted, then you wouldn't have uprisings. Plain and simple. If the government had met the needs of these people, both mentally as well as materially, then there would be absolutely no reason for them to riot.

[Grace Pryde]

Nah that's a false conclusion. After WW2 Labour assumed power because they had better plans for bringing the country out of its war-torn condition. They put the country back on its feet, not the Conservatives.

As for the current recession plans - Conservatives wanted, and are making, huge cuts. It is their belief that you cut and rebuild. On the other hand Labour wanted to keep money invested in our services because it is their belief that keeping money flowing in will strengthen the economy even though we'd be getting in more debt for a time.

The Conservatives plan - is deplorable because only the richer people benefit from it. They can afford to pay for private care if they need to and they have assets to sell off if they require funds. The poor people, who outnumber the rich people remember, have a reduction in services across the board. There's basically no regard for the welfare of people and it is wrong.

Sure it might make sense to cut and rebuild, but a lot of people will die (not an over-exaggeration) and suffer in the process. It is the duty of the citizens with more resources to take care of the people with less. THAT is the kind of community we lack in Britain.




I agree it senseless and disgusting. The people do not consciously know why they are rioting. I am a firm believer that people should overcome their need for wanton destruction regardless of their socioeconomic situation. However, the situation is not so cut and dried:

There are two camps brewing. It would seem one group are saying "It's because of social deprivation!" And the other camp are saying "There is no reason for it! Burn them all!"

I would go so far as to say that BOTH camps are correct. The people rioting and looting (remember the article I posted above is about looting, not rioting) have committed crimes and should be punished. No question about that. But also there are reasons why this has happened. They might not be conscious, the people rioting might not be aware of why, but social deprivation and exclusion play a huge role in behaviour.

To sum up my lengthy post (sorry!) I'll finish by saying: If the government made the right decisions, and made the under class and working class feel valued, cared for, and wanted, then you wouldn't have uprisings. Plain and simple. If the government had met the needs of these people, both mentally as well as materially, then there would be absolutely no reason for them to riot.

I don't have a degree in economics to question the validity of your statements but when I did study economics, broadly speaking, the Conservatives were in my opinion the financially more astute of the two major parties. And personally speaking, I have no issue with cutting deep. I don't see borrowing as a way of rectifying the mess that Labour contributed to.

As for the rioting. People are looting because they think they can get away with it. I have a fairly black and white view to this which is if they want to feel valued, then they need to add value in the first place. It would be very easy to give a broad and sweeping statement so I shall refrain from doing so as it's more complex than can be summed up in a forum post. I'm sure that there are those who feel vindicated in their actions or have some good reason (if flawed) for their actions. But there will always be the element of copy cats who do it because they feel they can get away with it. I still say, bring back national service. It might hurt, but it'll instill respect and provide people with skills.

[Soundwave]

I don't have a degree in economics to question the validity of your statements but when I did study economics, broadly speaking, the Conservatives were in my opinion the financially more astute of the two major parties. And personally speaking, I have no issue with cutting deep. I don't see borrowing as a way of rectifying the mess that Labour contributed to.

Again, that's a false conclusion. The economic mess is global and was pretty much unavoidable because no-one would listen to what Gordon Brown was telling them. I do concede that they did contribute to it, as you said, by selling off the gold at remarkably low prices and too much too quickly. But that is only one small part of why we're in this mess. If the blame game is to be played, then we should look to the banks and corporations but that is another conversation.

Your sentence rounding off your statement about cutting deep - that is the crux of my argument against Conservative plans. It has no consideration for the welfare of people in the present time. Their cuts have far reaching ramifications that people seem to be turning a blind eye to. The flow of money is not imporant, the welfare of people is.

To say that deep cuts are fine and we should weather the storm is to condemn people to poverty. We aren't there yet, but we are slipping closer and closer (especially with the looming threat of another recession). The Thatcher Government made deep cuts, and look what happened there. A generation of selfish indvidualistic people resulted, and the rich-poor divide increased dramatically, and the Cameron Government is a near carbon copy.

As for the rioting. People are looting because they think they can get away with it. I have a fairly black and white view to this which is if they want to feel valued, then they need to add value in the first place. It would be very easy to give a broad and sweeping statement so I shall refrain from doing so as it's more complex than can be summed up in a forum post. I'm sure that there are those who feel vindicated in their actions or have some good reason (if flawed) for their actions. But there will always be the element of copy cats who do it because they feel they can get away with it. I still say, bring back national service. It might hurt, but it'll instill respect and provide people with skills.

You're placing the responsibilty on the under and working classes to add value to their lives. That is wrong. The relationship should be reciprocal, and I believe it is the duty of the State to make the first move to nurture good feelings and harvest community spirit. Remember, I was saying that the reasons of social deprivation are unconscious, and I will also add that when the rioters give it as an excuse it usually a mere axiom.

However, social deprivation and exclusion are real, they exist. I have done research on it and know that they are facts of the world. If you have a devalued existence then you will act as such in society. Yes it is wrong, and they should be punished for their crimes, but we should also work to improve society at the same time.

I also don't understand why anyone would vote for Conservative unless they are at least upper middle class. Labour have done some retarded things, but they have also done some really great things:
Created the NHS
Developed the National Insurance scheme
They wanted to increase NI contributions instead of raising VAT because that would affect higher earners while VAT affects everyone
They improved the equality of women
They set up the Social Exclusion Unit to tackle stigma and discrimination in ALL areas of society including the mentally ill (often the first to be forgotten)
They helped to make homosexuality socially acceptable
They improved the rights of the disabled and ensured they would have access to the same employment opportunites as non-disabled

Why would we want a return to the old Conservative ways? All they want to do is make backwards reforms, like you see with them privatising the NHS.

Argh sorry this has turned into a rant.

[Soundwave]

Grace - I'm really enjoying this discussion by the way. It's not often you get to do it these days! People can be so dogmatic that they don't even want to talk about their views and hash it out with someone.

[Grace Pryde]

I chose my words carefully. I don't believe Labour caused the economic crisis but I do believe they contributed to the effect that it had on the country. Of course the banks acted irresponsibly and I fear that they will never really be punished. However, while I am comfortable taxing bankers to a point, excessive taxing will prove to be more of a problem than it really solves but it will sit well with most because it's taxing the rich and that's ok.

Also, it's quite a broad and sweeping statement that "A generation of selfish indvidualistic people resulted" and I comprehensively disagree. And yes the state should care for the welfare of the people but to what extent and at what cost? We could go further and do more but the level of economic prosperity drives the state's ability to provide welfare. It's not quite so black and white as you've stated. Nothing ever is.

Of course labour has done some good things over the course of it's existence but it's far from the savior of the country. It's leadership was severely lacking over the last few years. Can the state do more, I believe it can and should and you're right that the relationship should be reciprocal but I don't believe we're in quite the state of deprivation that some would have us believe. I may be a little removed from the cold face so I can't properly make that level of assessment but just driving around it doesn't feel like we are. There are some of course who are desperately impoverished and there are others who have just made bad choices and are paying the price and are unhappy at doing so. Taxing the rich because they can afford it is all well and good until they leave and go to a tax haven and we lose the income. Again, it's not a black and white situation. But it's often thought of as the easy option and it's not at all.

I have no issue with privatisation either by the way. I've always been a tory voter and I suspect I always will be.

Anyway I am now hungry :p

[Soundwave]

I chose my words carefully. I don't believe Labour caused the economic crisis but I do believe they contributed to the effect that it had on the country. Of course the banks acted irresponsibly and I fear that they will never really be punished. However, while I am comfortable taxing bankers to a point, excessive taxing will prove to be more of a problem than it really solves but it will sit well with most because it's taxing the rich and that's ok.

Yeah I did question the wording of what I said about your comment when I hit "submit" but I figured I'd leave it and sort it out when you responded. You did choose your words carefully there, so consider what I said an elaboration on the point instead, rather than a criticism. It was originally intended as a criticism but I retract that.

Taxing the rich - Yeah I agree with you there. As you discussed later in your post it could just drive corporations and banks out of Britain and they'll go somewhere else. Unfortunately my knowledge is lacking here, but I think other things can be done by the excessively rich outside of taxation. From what I gather they escape a lot of their tax responsibilities through loopholes and so on.

We're going majorly off topic now, so I'll round this up quicker than I would like. There were so many problems with Labour's initatives. I don't necessarily think that the initiatives were bad, but their implementation was shocking. We have a brilliant welfare state, but it is too exploitable. We are a wonderfully open country that accepts immigrants from all cultures, but we let too many in too quickly. Things like that make me hold my head in my hands haha. Had they thought things through properly, and set up the foundations properly, a lot of their plans would have worked better.

There's so many topics we've brought up over the last couple of posts and I wish we had the time to really fully discuss them. I don't think my statements were as broad and sweeping as you think, they just need some clarification but there just isn't time and room

As it is, and as it is so often with these things, we have to agree to disagree at the end of the discussion. You're a devout Conservative, and I'm a very strong Socialist and we'll never agree unless something drastic happened or we were able to focus on one issue and discuss solely that haha.

[Jonathan Reynolds]

as long as people think they can get away with it the violence will continue. i work at HMCC (Her Majesties Crown Court) Minshull street Manchester and many of the cleaning crews were caught off guard by it.

[Silynn]

I have enjoyed this thread, just dug into it. A great debate and enlightening to many degrees. The differences in British politics isn't as different as what is going on in the United States today. Just to throw in some thoughts from someone on the other side of 'the pond'.

It may sound and seem cold, but I see outright welfare as bribery/appeasement for votes. Maybe my perception is skewed but you hear and read about so many cases of fraud or see people on welfare driving Mercedes and jabbering on their cellphones. The once noble idea of welfare has become more of a 'free handout'. These same people, do not contribute to the system as they don't pay taxes.

Moving on to "Taxing the rich" is a popular mantra but it is a false one. The rich will ALWAYS find a way to duck, avoid, hide their wealth in such a way to avoid paying what the 'masses' want them to pay. Thus, all of the extra taxes and such falls on the middle class. The group between the "wealthy" and "poverty striken". The same group who strives and works hard day in and day out to make a living... and provide a quality life for themselves and their family.

I do understand that EVERYONE wants that same dream/ideal. However, that brings me to a final point about welfare. Motivation. Though it sounds 'evil', Greed is a big driving force motivating much of the world. I get up at 5:30am every weekday so I can get ready to go to work. I work my 47 weeks every year (3 weeks vacation, 2 weeks national/company holidays). I want to keep paying my mortgage on my home, own/drive a car, and have enough to pay for small luxuries in life.

It might have been how I was raised, as I remember as a child, my parents didn't have a lot... so I had to work for it (recycling/collecting cans/newspaper, house chores, etc). If I wanted something I knew I had to work and earn it. As an independent adult, I still believe that.

However, in today's world... the sense of 'entitlement' has gotten way out of hand. The idea that one deserves something without giving something back is what has gotten the world into this whole financial and money mess.

Politics aside... until the society adjusts it's own value system again, things will not readily improve to become the ideals of "Star Trek society".