[Hermanator]

You can view the article at http://ufplanets.com/content.php?263...tia-went-wrong

[Kains]

A very interesting article, and an interesting premise: Would a nonviolent approach work to end an occupation by a non-originating species. I totally agree on much of what is said about nonviolent approaches, having read works by men like King and Gandhi, I cannot help but have an incredible level of respect for their ideals, not only for having goals that include nonviolence , but the sheer iron it would take to not raise a hand in one's defense.

I would personally like to think I would behave in such a manner, were it required, but I know I would strike back. A year ago I would have had more conviction in my stance for nonviolence, but I find myself thinking about it more and more now that I have a son, and I know there are limits to where I would strike back: ruthlessly so.

The only real downside I can see to this argument is that it makes certain assumptions: That the Cardassians would react in a manner similar to humans, and that any act of sufficient depredation would garner the attention of other galactic powers (Assuming this to be the Federation, as I cannot foresee either the Klingon Empire, or Romulan Star Empire to step in).

I'll break protocol and deal with the second one first.

The downside to waiting for an extreme act of destruction to happen is twofold: The first is obvious, the extreme act of destruction, and the second is the hope that the other party would notice. When you have men like Picard and Maxwell being basically ignorant of the situation on Bajor, one whom takes sentient life personally and the other who hated Cardassians with a deep seated vehemence, one has to wonder just how large the act would need to be. Furthermore, the Cardassians are a deeply pragmatic people, viewing Bajor and it's inhabitants to be purely resources to be consumed in the most efficient manner possible. Additionally, the mainstay are political animals to the bone, meaning discussions on outside perception of the occupation likely took place at every family dinner table, like we would discuss politics.

In the end I think it would be the exact same risk as violence: Either they will destroy everything, or give up and leave. Despite the efforts of the resistance, or diplomacy, the Cardassians basically left because the planet simply wasn't worth the bother. Even then they poisoned ground works and either took or destroyed any device of worth. To me that illustrates that there is a fine line of political movement within the Cardassian Union, one that could just have easily turned to more 'final' solutions, something they could easily employ in the years it would take the Federation to make any diplomatic moves.

Which leads to my first point: That the assumption is they will respond like humans is partially flawed. The Cardassians are, of course, of human creation , so they mirror certain facets of our psyche and society that the writers would find intriguing to shine a light on. The average Cardassian is brought up under harsh living standards (when compared to Federation standards), is taught to deceive and protect themselves, to be deeply involved in politics and have a strong sense of Cardassian 'justice'. The Cardassian Union itself is an organization filled with intrigue, social and military machinations that exist in a house of cards that is difficult to believe functions in any real fashion.

There are similarities of course. The comparison to Noble Norwegian is a great one, where downright ridiculous laws are created and enforced in an effort to quiet such simple civil disobedience. We saw similar pieces from the Cardassians, such as shooting farmers for waving the wrong standard (A heavy handed comparison, but it works). The downside for such a scheme is while civil disobedience works, largely due to outside observance and eventually having the oppressive force feel discomfort, neither of these conditions existed in a scale large enough, I believe, to offset the occupation efforts of the entire planet. The Cardassians were shown numerous times to dispense harsh and debilitating retribution for acts of civil disobedience, which neither drew galactic attention or discomfort on behalf of the Cardassians themselves.

Unfortunately I believe this was a case of them being damned regardless of action, but it is a terrific discussion.

[Kern]

The Cardassians were shown numerous times to dispense harsh and debilitating retribution for acts of civil disobedience, which neither drew galactic attention or discomfort on behalf of the Cardassians themselves.

I think that the proposal is inherently flawed and this statement highlights why. The article applies a terrestrial theory to a galactic problem. From fleeing refugees to leaked news reports, it's relatively easy for the powers that be on a singular planet to hear of heavy-handed responses to peaceful demonstrations. That is not necessarily the case when the government responsible controls the whole planet and all access to the planet where these atrocities are occurring.

The governments that neighbour this power must also be in a position where they will actually get involved. We know that the Federation was not long out of a war with the Cardassians and showed on multiple occasions that they were hesitant to risk a new one. The Klingons were hardly going to invade the Cardassian Union on humanitarian grounds. The only other major power that could get involved meaningfully, that of the Romulan Star Empire, showed about as much regard for humanitarianism as the Klingons and to our knowledge don't even border the Cardassian Union. Who does that leave to act as the influencer who will put pressure on the Cardassians?

[Hermanator]

When I said

Thus concluding that if the Bajoran masses are focused on overthrowing the Occupation and even willing to endure repression in the sake of such an outcome that the Occupation would be overthrowed even if it were to be supported by an outside force.

I meant that they could be overthrown even if the Cardassians are supported by another power.

In terms of the Humanitarian aspects of the Cardassian Union I think the major noteworthy point is that almost every Cardassian character in DS9 seemed to show a level of guilt or at least attempt to justify the actions taken under the Occupation. If they truly did not care they wouldn't feel a need to justify their actions. I think my example in early paragraphs about the June 4th Massacre relates to this, not all of human history has been Humanitarian. Those who took part or were suspected of taking part (specifically that of Tienanmen Square) faced arrest, torture and even execution.

[Christopher Halsey]

A very interesting and thought provoking article.

I agree with the point made by Kains about the fact that this deals with alien cultures and with that in mind you won't necessarily see them behave the same way humans would. As for the Cardassian sense of guilt about the Occupation I'm not sure if guilt is the right term to use really, whilst some Cardassian characters have been shown to demonstrate guilt I don't think they are representative of the majority of the population or the leadership. Cardassians believe in service to the state and family above everything else, the reason the Cardassians occupied Bajor was because Bajor was rich both in minerals and food, both of these were in high demand to support the Cardassian military in its conflicts with their neighbours and because most Cardassians lived extremely poorly since Cardassia and its territories were not able to adequately support their own population. The Bajorans were unwilling to trade for what Cardassia wanted so the combination of Cardassia needing what the Bajorans had and the Cardassians sense of self importance it was perfectly justifiable in their eyes to take what they needed. Cardassian news was also entirely ran by the state which meant the general population only knew what they were told, it was only those higher up in Cardassian society and military officers on the front line that had any real knowledge of the situation on Bajor and even they were subject to near constant propaganda.

With regard to other powers being involved I think the likelihood of that would be slim. The Federation wouldn't get involved based on the fact that the legitimate Bajoran Government invited Cardassia as an occupying force, whilst this was actually orchestrated by the Cardassians (which the Federation was aware of) it was still a Bajoran issue much as the attempted coup by the Circle which was also a result of manipulation by the Cardassians. As for the other major galactic powers which would be the Klingons and the Romulans, Bajor is quite far from their space and neither had had any real incidents of note with the Cardassians with the exception of the Betreka Nebula incident which despite lasting a number of years was a very minor incident between the Klingons and the Cardassians. The only other powers remotely close to Bajor would be the Talarian Republic who had a history of border skirmishes with the Cardassians but did not have the resources to support anything more than that and the Tzenkethi Coalition who likewise had been involved in border skirmishes with the Cardassians but were also on poor terms with the Bajorans following a number of incidents immediately prior to the Cardassian Occupation. The Cardassians also put in to place very strict travel rules for Bajorans and they were only allowed to leave Bajor on approved business which in itself was very rare. Given that few Bajorans could leave Bajor and Cardassia controlled the government it is likely to assume that very little information pertaining to the goings on on Bajor got out other than what the Cardassians put out. In all likelihood I think the bulk of the wider quadrant was unlikely to care much about the Bajorans and even less likely to care enough to actually do something about it.

[Hermanator]

In order to keep a progression of ideas flowing I’ll make a U-Turn and state that I agree with you all that the probability of the Federation or another power involving itself is slim. It’s a hypothetical which wasn’t considered correctly, but something which is an important feature in the book, which Kern may have an argument in this specific point relating to the nature of terrestrial theory to a galactic problem. Where I disagree is that no idea is too small or too big to be altered or changed to comment on any situation, be it this or another. I concur with the assumption on the Cardassian Race, but without the assumption it is impossible to apply the book to this scenario resulting in this article being rather short.

Let’s simply look at Violent Revolution opposed to Non Violence, No Cooperation. I think my strongest point made throughout the article is the statement that the Government/Occupation almost always has superior firepower and the capabilities to destroy a band of usually disorganised rebels. Which I think in many ways the Bajoran Militia were. They certainly were not la Résistance or Forces Françaises Libres lead by Charles De Gaul in the 40s; unless compared to those movements in the British satirical comedy Allo, Allo then by all means very close. I think yes, Non-Violent Movement would become a Tiananmen Square Massacre on a grand scale as I have mentioned twice beforehand. There is on another hand always a very, very small possibility that it could instead be that of the “Singing Revolutions” during the breakup of the Soviet Union – no bloodshed. Whereas Violent Revolution will always result in some form of bloodshed, which I believe will always be far greater than otherwise. When the great Iraqi Kurds decided to rebel against Saddam Hussein in 1983, there were at least 1 million refugees, 50,000 – 100,000 killed with 4,000 villages destroyed, one chemical weapons attack killing up to 5,000 people; wounding over 10,000 people. I would never be so dim witted to state that this would not have happened if they were not to raise arms against such a sadomasochistic dictator and regime. What it does highlight is that regimes have weapons which rebels and militias do not have.

[Kains]

Wow, I haven't seen Allo, Allo in 20 years... granted I think I was watching it as it premiered, since i remember the lead being injured in a hurricane we had there in 1990 (I think it was 1990 anyway). Great show, very funny.

Before going through the u-turn alongside you Hermanator, I will state that that I do somewhat agree with your original assumption, but I do so love a proper debate. I mentioned my arguments against it earlier, but there are still plenty of arguments for it as well. The path of nonviolence, despite it's name, is often fraught with violent destruction, but the long term results for a society, in my opinion, far outweigh the damages suffered by the individual.

Cardassians, as mentioned before, are the result of writers wishing to focus on specific parts of human society and psyche. The upside is that it makes for very interesting television, especially since they did a fantastic job of not making them all two dimensional. The downside is, in my opinion, it creates an unrealistic set of circumstances: Absolutes. In this case the Cardassians had absolute control of the planet, information getting in and out, absolute stances on how to view the Bajoran populace., etc. Yes, they did show some remorse in some of the characters, but the mainstay were ambivalent at best. The downsides to such absolutes in societal design is that they would likely behave in absolutes, which is not terribly realistic, but it is the 'playground' in which we play.

There is, of course, the possibility of the Bajorans did try it, they were under the yoke of Cardassian rule for 50 years, and they were, supposedly, a largely defenseless race focused more on art, quiet faith, and enlightenment. These factors would lean towards them at least discussing nonviolent rebellion.

Certainly would make an interesting story!

[Kains]

Plus I may need to look up this book. I've been neglecting my reading as of late, filling in my spare moments with fluff crime novels and such. It's brain candy, but like any candy if you eat too much your brain will get fat and lazy.

[Christopher Halsey]

Whilst we will never know for certain since it isn't really covered it would surprise me if non-violent means of resistance hadn't been employed by at least some of the Bajorans or early on during the occupation.

At the start of the occupation the Cardassians were seen as being invited by the government to help support the government as a result of widespread civil unrest which had actually been orchestrated by the Cardassians, it is entirely possible that initially the Bajorans cooperated with the Cardassians until it became clear to the population at large that the Cardassians weren't there for the benefit of Bajor.

Given that Cardassia controlled the government and in all likelihood controlled the press it might have taken some time for the Bajorans to realise the situation they found themselves in especially since very robust travel restrictions were put in to place. Take our world at the moment, how do we know what is going on in Afghanistan? The government and the press tell us, for all most of us know the actual situation there could be very different, hell for all most of us know it could be populated by ginger bread men after all how many people have first hand experience?

Given how in the dark the Bajorans most likely were I think it is entirely possible that their first acts to defy the Cardassians were non-violent resistance, rather than trying to create a conflict that in all likelihood they had no chance of winning a more passive approach to resistance would make more sense.

Violent resistance probably came about as a result of a minority that had combat training and access to suitable equipment (such as the police or military) who given their positions were likely to be less inclined to the Cardassians in the first place as well as those simply driven too far by the Cardassians as a result of specific local issues.

Based on the episode 'Duet' it is stated on Memory Alpha that the Bajorans didn't begin to form the Bajoran Resistance until decades after the occupation started and the earliest reference to any kind of violent resistance taking place on Bajor was in 2333 which was several years in to the occupation.

In the article the Bajoran Militia is referenced a number of times but the Militia was formed after the occupation. During the occupation the Bajoran Resistance was a collection of resistance cells that had very little interaction with each other which I think was likely to be one of the biggest hindrances to their campaign rather than their violent tactics. As an outnumbered and poorly equipped force when compared to the Cardassian occupational forces and given the Obsidian Order's effectiveness it makes sense that the Bajoran Resistance was separated in to cells to limit the degree to which they could be compromised. However there is no real evidence to suggest that the Bajoran Resistance actually operated as a single unified force, on a number of occasions in DS9 former Resistance members even years after the occupation ended where unaware of the actions taken by members of different cells. Whilst this structure kept the cells safer it must have effectively prevented them from coordinated action which would have likely increased their effectiveness. Because of the Obsidian Order's effectiveness I think it is likely that any kind of mass organised non-violent resistance would have suffered the exact same problems since a number of non-violent resistance tactics and methods would have either been unavailable to the Bajorans or ineffective against the Cardassians.

In fact now I think further on the subject I think there were a few references to non-violent resistance by members of the Bajoran clergy. In one episode didn't Winn chastise Kira for thinking only the Resistance were resisting the Cardassians, going on to mention how spreading word of the Prophets was outlawed which was an activity she still carried out during the Occupation, another episode also referenced that Opaka was similarly active during the Occupation and she actually betrayed the cell her son was part of to prevent a larger massacre.

[Hermanator]

Hehe damn those Trek writers, I feel like Nick Clegg trying to deal with the Lord Rennard scandal. The principle behind the article was interesting. Its good that since publishing I have been educated on a wide array of Star Trek Cannon, which otherwise would not have happened, thus I would remained ignorant. Perhaps i'm far too idealistic to realistically or analytically place such a group of ideals into Trek, but I certainly felt it was worth a shot.

I have always considered the Cardassian Occupation to be a metaphor of the Nazi occupation of Poland (excluding the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact and the rest of WW2), and not just a metaphor for the holocaust, which I'm aware that some people originally consider. This has probably given me a different view than that which I would have otherwise had. The Cardassians being almost a Bavarian Prussian hybrid, a paradox in terms of characteristics, dedication to the State with Duty et cetera combined with a hedonistic arrogance. Whereas the Bajorans seem to be rough on the edges, extremely assertive on the cliff of aggression. Which falls into a Slavic/Polish characteristic. Of course such stereotypes must be taken with a pinch of salt, despite me believing stereotypes exist for a reason. I don't think its correct in retrospect to consider the Cardassians as the evil bad guys, who are highly militaristic and brutal. Yes, that is true in the case of the labour camps, concentration camps and take your daughter to work day.

I think if we use Gul Dukat mourning over one of his Bajoran Courtesans, truly and expression of guilt and grief, its just that this is shadowed by his unquestioning duty to the Cardassian State. Which being a Orwellian Fascist Crackpot produces horrific results. I have always thought that the Cardassian Characteristics combined with an Organised Federal Democratic system would be the one true Star Trek Utopia.