[Ross]

My understanding of Starfleet's mandates is in line with Dark's. Starfleet is a multifaceted organization with varied directives. Parallels can be drawn with historic or current use of military forces.

[Chase]

I think its safe to say that technical analysis supports Starfleet being a military organization, but I would also like to look with using more philosophical analysis. I think it boils down to a relatively simple question:

Is Starfleet fundamentally a military organization that strives to be an exploration fleet when threat levels allow it or is it a exploration fleet that reluctantly turns into a military organization when threat levels demand it. I think it is a issue of realism vs idealism.

I think one of the themes Star Trek illustrates brilliantly is that no matter how hard we may strive for idealism and optimism, there are always going to be circumstances and situations that show that fundamentally we have to be realists. The defense of our life, liberty and pursuit of happiness comes before our idealist hopes and desires for the world we live in.

In short, I think Starfleet ideally strives for peaceful exploration but realistically it has to first be the Federation's military.

[phasers]

There is a big distinction between ships that is used in defense and ships that are used in exploration. The pre-Dominion war Odyssey was destroyed rather quickly(even though it did tanked some serious hits, especially considering that Jem'hadar Polaron bypass shields), but the Challenger/Venture, also a Galaxy class ship that is in the Dominion war are fighting even with a giant hole in the engineering section, while Odyssey is destroyed.
Probably saves time and resrouces to just let ships used the same basic shape, then upgrade and adapted vital parts depend on need.
Starfleet is the embodiment of the term "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst". TNG are the first half, DS9 is the second. Both are part of Starfleet and it's agenda.
SPeaking of exploration ships, I don't think Starfleet have much "True" exploration ships that doesnt have some combat-fitted cousin. There is the Nova, Olympia, Intrepid(though the 14 phaser array are suspicious) and what else, Orberth? No more really...

[Halfeclipse]

This is getting a little of topic, but i don't think it's fair to compare the Odyssey vs the Venture. The Odyssey was out on patrol by itself and ran into a new enemy with an unprecedented weapons system and then literally got ran in to. The Venture had the benefit of 4 years of R&D and new exactly what it would be going up against, and went into battle with a fleet supporting it.

[phasers]

This is getting a little of topic, but i don't think it's fair to compare the Odyssey vs the Venture. The Odyssey was out on patrol by itself and ran into a new enemy with an unprecedented weapons system and then literally got ran in to. The Venture had the benefit of 4 years of R&D and new exactly what it would be going up against, and went into battle with a fleet supporting it.

Maybe ,but the Venture is in a battlefield with enemy shots flying everywhere anyway. As for the Venture, judging by that hole, even if it is not rammed it still took massive damage...

[Halfeclipse]

Sure but a hole in the hull (at least as far as trek is concerned) is NBD. The actual material isn't what holds a ship together, that's the structural integrity field (by a lot. voyagers SIf dealt with 45 teradynes (about 450 million newtons)) As long as that isn't critically compromised, then all they need to do is slap a force field over the breach to stop atmosphere from venting and off they go. Even if it is compromised, a nearby ship can use it's own structural integrity field to support its neighbors.

Also I just went on watched the Odysseys destruction and it resulted from an order to reduce power to the shields. That allowed the Dominion ships to put a Jem'Hadar fighter through the secondary hull causing a warp core breach. Assuming the Jem'Hadar fighter has a matter/antimatter reactor, which presumably breached after the collision, I doubt Starfleet has a ship designed to take that and survive.

[Thalos]

Just finished watching the DS9 episode Home front, and currently on part 2 called Paradise lost.

Both the President of the Federation, an admiral, Captain sisko, and I think a few other people including Odo all refer to Starfleet as a military organization.

[rebus16]

Even though it might be a bit different from contemporary militaries, I personally think that Starfleet is definitely a military organisation.

Just a few of the reasons:

- It has a highly structured rank system with ranks such as admiral which are not found outside of militaries.
- Even the ships on exploration missions are usually heavily armed.
- The existence of ships like the Akira-class, Defiant-class and Prometheus-class which are clearly combat vessels.
- Starfleet has an officer academy, the personnel is divided into officers, NCOs and enlisted.
- Many of the traditions, regulations and rules are fitting for a military organisation.

[Chase]

There have been many great points for and against in this discussion, but I'd like to bring it back a little closer to the original post. Does anyone feel that as hard as Gene Roddenberry tried to make Starfleet not a military organization, he almost demanded for Starfleet to be the Federation's military given the world he created, most of which having very close ties to contemporary issues throughout the years? Thoughts?

[Dark]

The funny thing about this is that I always thought Kirk's Starfleet in TOS was more militaristic than Picard's Starfleet in TNG, but Roddenberry would have had greater control over TOS, no?

[Chase]

The funny thing about this is that I always thought Kirk's Starfleet in TOS was more militaristic than Picard's Starfleet in TNG, but Roddenberry would have had greater control over TOS, no?

Yeah Dark, I was thinking the same thing. Its especially strange given how the major factions in TOS loosely mirror real life cold war factions such as the NATO, Soviet Union and China.

In my personal opinion and I welcome debate on this:
-The Federation being the Western Bloc or the UN
-Starfleet being NATO
-The Klingons being the Soviet Union
-The Romulans being the Chinese

[Chase]

Anyone interested in bringing up this discussion again? I am very interested in the thoughts of the many new UFP members that have joined in the last few months.

[Bar'ol]

Kinda funny I found this thread. I been watching different ST series on netflix and was thinking about this a bit. TNG is indeed more towards the exploration till greater threats get involved like romulans or borg. But at same time Picard was very strict to preserving life at all cost due to exploration as well as keeping the prime directive. Now, with DS9 probably little unfair due to them putting the dominan war into that series, but was into exploration due to the wormhole or the celestial temple as the bajorians would call it. ENT had a lot of dilemma with this topic. They wanted to be explorers looking for new life. As Archer saw more and more it was a hostile galaxy to the point where xindi wanted to destory earth (Yeah, I know it was temporal issue there but yeah)

But overall, I'd say it is military due to keeping ranks itself "chain of command" as Picard says it. He even wonders why families are on starships because things can go sour fast. Look at the whole of Star Trek its a very hostile galaxy. So, you cant have a fully peace going explorers. Their ships itself through time have gotten more defensive capabilities as well as offensive. Over time, imo, the true vision of what the federation stands for gets weaker and weaker, but thats with any vision (with my experience at least haha).

[Chase]

Over time, imo, the true vision of what the federation stands for gets weaker and weaker, but thats with any vision (with my experience at least haha).

Those are some very interesting points. Both in relation to the Federation and visions in general. I would have to agree with both of them. I feel that throughout all the series, you can see the constant struggle to hold true to the idealist vision of the Federation, but actual circumstances make it very difficult if not impossible to do so. I think that has a lot of parallels in the world today. I myself am in the military and I wish nothing more than for there to be absolute peace in the world, but the truth of the matter is that there will always be someone out to do you harm. There has been since the beginning of human history and there alway will always be. I think its important to strive for ideals, but at the same time you must be able to do what it takes to preserve your ability to strive for that ideal.

[Bridger]

Take a look of the roles the Enterprise and DS9 had to fulfill.

The Enterprise was build to explore the galaxy, while DS9 on the other hand was a defense station that lied on the border to the Cardassians a faction the Federation had a bloody war with over years.

Starfleet was there to protect the Bajorans but in the war even without the Wormhole DS9 would have been a strategic very important location for Starfleet.