[Avenger]

The Federation and The EU

With the upcoming Referendum coming up as a Trekkie and a Thinker, I tried to steer away from the financial and other non 24th Century issues, I thought it to be best to focus on the ideological similarities to raise some interesting debate on whether as Star Trek fans, are we discrediting ourselves by Voting to Leave or Voting to Stay?

The Federation and The EU have many similarities; ran by the people as part of a democracy, a collective of cultures treated equally, a collection of geographical points often with nothing in common other than a sense of moral fairness and a desire to promote diversity and trade.

I also refer to the thoughts regarding migration, how often did you see the Federation turn away desperate people from other species because they weren't part of their federation or were unable to take them?

The EU and The Federation seek to improve the lives of its people and its members often by creating new legislation and rules to constrain corporations of power to favour the rights of the majority.

As the greatest spokesperson of all in Star Trek said and I quote, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Why when we follow this motto through everything we do in Star Trek decide to ignore this in our everyday decisions and particularly in the greatest decision/referendum of our time or even the century?

Whilst I know I'm sailing close to the wind on the forum rules and general decorum on including politics in forum discussion I believe this is a worthy point of debate.

[Christopher Halsey]

Whilst there is some similarity between the European Union and the Federation there are plenty of differences.

Chiefly amongst them would be the fact that the United Federation of Planets is a democracy where citizens get to vote not only for their planetary representative but for the President, where as in the European Union there are multiple different leadership groups, the European Commission, the European Parliament and the European Council, whilst citizens do have some influence over some of the people belonging to some of the groups they do not get to vote as to who leads the European Union.

Next up would be the fact that the United Federation of Planets seems to work quite well, the European Union on the other hand takes what most people dislike about government and increases it, overpaid officials, lack of accountability, mass bureaucracy and red tape.

I think most of the people in favour of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union aren't necessarily against the idea of unity or the whole being greater than the sum of it's parts I think it's down to the fact that they don't like how the European Union actually works.

[Three of Seven]

I think most of the people in favour of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union aren't necessarily against the idea of unity or the whole being greater than the sum of it's parts I think it's down to the fact that they don't like how the European Union actually works.

Nah, most people who are in favour of the UK leaving the EU think that we are able to be a big power on our own, when in reality, it's far too late in the game to even attempt that.It's nothing to do with unity, it's to do with an over emphasis on nationalism. It would be delusional to think the EU would give the UK priority on trade agreements or even a good deal, they would have no reason to offer the UK a deal even close to what Norway gets. That is a massive aside.

When it comes to comparing the EU and the Federation, there are many differences between them, the UN would be a better comparison, due to the Federation having military agreements among many other things, the EU doesn't have these. Achieving global unity would be a great thing, I do think the EU helps towards that and if you want an organisation to change, you don't leave it, you can't influence change that way!

On the topic of red tape, I think the Federation has a lot more of that than the EU could ever have

[Avenger]

I agree I would rather be part of a greater whole rather than less and that I do firmly believe there is a great degree of arrogance over our assumed beliefs about our status and power - the EU needs to be reformed to simulate a better system of democracy so we can be more Federation like in its appearance, rather than leaving!!!!

[Christopher Halsey]

Nah, most people who are in favour of the UK leaving the EU think that we are able to be a big power on our own, when in reality, it's far too late in the game to even attempt that. It's nothing to do with unity, it's to do with an over emphasis on nationalism.

Far too late in the game? The UK has the 5th largest economy in the world, there are more than 180 countries ranked lower than the UK so to say that it's too late for the UK to be a big power by itself is simply not true.

It would be delusional to think the EU would give the UK priority on trade agreements or even a good deal, they would have no reason to offer the UK a deal even close to what Norway gets. That is a massive aside.

Denmark's GDP is about a 10th of that of the UK therefore there are massive incentives for the European Union to have strong trade agreements with the UK, far more incentives than there are with Denmark. There is also the fact that the United Kingdom is the only member of the Commonwealth of Nations located within Europe, the Commonwealth's GDP is about equal to that of the European Union and includes almost a third of the global population, that's not the sort of group you want to have poor trade ties with.

[Three of Seven]

Far too late in the game? The UK has the 5th largest economy in the world, there are more than 180 countries ranked lower than the UK so to say that it's too late for the UK to be a big power by itself is simply not true.

It won't be 5th largest if we left the EU, on it's own, the UK is not a big power, used to be, not anymore.

[Three of Seven]

To believe that the UK couldn't survive outside the EU or "we would no longer be the 5th largest economy" is to not understand the nature of a globalised economy. Of course we would get an agreement with the EU but why should we get a pathetic agreement for access to the common market and no say in how to develops when we can stay and be a leading voice from within.

To assume that the UK would remain the 5th largest economy is a dangerous assumption to make, the UK could survive outside of the EU, just as Scotland could survive outside of the UK, that doesn't make it a good move and it is economic uncertainty. When markets are uncertain, stocks don't do so well, the markets where shaky during the Scottish referendum. I'm not an economic expert, but there would be a lot of short term damage, there are companies who say they would move their HQ out of the UK if lave was the vote.

When it comes to the common market for the EU, you still have to pay into it, but get all the bad things as well, don't get to pick and choose. On a political level, a leave vote would cause some EU nations to not want to give the UK a good deal because politics is a nasty business, full of spite.

Economic uncertainty is not good for market growth or strength, so yes, the UK would fall below 5th largest. France isn't far behind, their market could overtake the UK one, making us 6th, the fall might not be great, but there would be a fall. I might not be an economist or a budding accountant, but come on, if business lose faith in a country, the economy suffers, it's common sense

[Christopher Halsey]

Far too late in the game? The UK has the 5th largest economy in the world, there are more than 180 countries ranked lower than the UK so to say that it's too late for the UK to be a big power by itself is simply not true.

It won't be 5th largest if we left the EU, on it's own, the UK is not a big power, used to be, not anymore.

On what are you basing that assumption?

Firstly experts are still debating the economic pros and cons of being in the EU so I really don't see how you can state as fact that the UK's economy would shrink outside of the EU. Secondly, over the last few years the EU's GDP has dropped whilst the UK's has grown, above projections with those same projections showing that the UK is on track to be the largest economy in Europe within a few years. Thirdly, the UK also makes a significantly higher return rate on non-EU trade than it does EU trade.

If we ignore the economics and just look at politics, the UK is a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, a founding member of NATO and the Commonwealth of Nations. The UK also has a leading role in peacekeeping around the world.

Similar stories with culture and science. English is spoken in more countries around the world than any other language. You've got the successes of British actors and athletes, the UK is one of the top tourist destinations on the planet. The UK is a global leader in science and technology with high numbers of foreign students travelling to the UK for a higher education, some of the highest journal exports and publications in the world and a large number of patents being registered.

[Three of Seven]

On what are you basing that assumption?

A previous referendum, where the Scottish were voting for independence, leading up to the vote, the market was slipping, it was only after the no vote that the pound and markets started to recover again, uncertainty leads to market falls - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29268196

On the note of the Scottish independence, anyone who was on the "Better Together" side should really be looking at staying in the EU as well, the arguments to keep Scotland in the UK can be applied to keeping the UK in the EU! We are better together, not separate, we can do far more in the world as a larger entity than as a smaller one and it's closer to global unity.

We have drifted way off topic onto the main referendum now at this point, we can never hope for a global Federation if countries start to split apart from each other. The idea of the Federation is a nice one, but one humans haven't yet managed to grasp the concept of, people struggle to work with each other for various reasons and that will be a barrier for a long time.

[Christopher Halsey]

A previous referendum, where the Scottish were voting for independence, leading up to the vote, the market was slipping, it was only after the no vote that the pound and markets started to recover again, uncertainty leads to market falls - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29268196

That's a bit different for a couple of very important reasons.

1) Firstly the relationship between Scotland and the UK is completely different to that of the UK and the EU. Whilst Scotland does have some powers regarding governance if Scotland left the UK you would be breaking up a country which is very different to the UK leaving the EU, the UK does follow some EU legislation but aside from that the two are not joined nearly as closely. Businesses know what it is like to operate and deal with the UK, that changes very little whether the UK is in or out of the EU, businesses were more concerned about the break up of the UK as it would lead to suddenly operating in and dealing with, essentially a new nation.

2) Short term market fluctuations don't necessarily dictate long term trends. The long term trends are that the UK is in growth and the EU is in decline. There is also the fact that short term uncertainty would not be limited to the UK in fact it would most likely be more prominent in the EU since if the UK did leave the EU would be losing it's second biggest economy and also the economy that is growing the most and is projected to be the leading economy in Europe within years.

Personally I think the case for staying in the EU is currently a stronger one than that of the UK leaving but I don't subscribe to the argument that the UK isn't a significant global power or that it couldn't succeed outside of the EU, it is an opinion that isn't backed up by the facts at this time.

The biggest obstacle to a united humanity is, in my opinion, the fact that 1% of the population controls more than 50% of the world's wealth. I think that is a far greater challenge to humanity and far more likely to have an impact on whether or not Earth becomes united rather than whether or not the UK remains in the EU. That isn't something that any major government or international institution is making progress to address and until that happens we are likely to remain divided.

It would be wonderful if the EU were trying to do something about that but I believe it lacks both the ability and the will to which is further complicated by the fact that the majority of EU citizens don't know who runs the EU or what their agenda actually is making it very difficult for the EU to be representative of it's citizens. The EU is deeply flawed, in it's defence so are a lot of political entities, but humanity becoming united isn't just about creating bigger political bodies, it is about actually addressing the problems holding back the human race.

[Bridger]

Considering that a strong currency is bad for business as it means it is far more expensive to buy in the UK than in an other country leaving the EU would also bring import and export taxes back and make this an even more uninteresting deal, and if I remember me correctly the UK is very dependent on imports because of the lack of recourses.

[Bar'ol]

I dont live in the UK/EU so my opinion probably doesn't matter, but with that from as far as I can tell, other then how deeply confusing the system is from the video provided, I like to see it like United States with its states instead of different countries represented, to that degree though that is where it is different since it representing so much, maybe more is at stake then just unity. If today someone left the USA it probably would devastate the economy/delegates depending on who left. Lets say New York major player into USA economics all the suddenly left the United States it be a big deal.

But regards to the actual question as in regard to Federation, we see them helping anyone that asks for not matter what alignment they are with the federation. You see many times where Picard save a Romulan or Sisko saving a Dominion/Cardassian. Even when flying on a mission they answer any call for help.

"As the greatest spokesperson of all in Star Trek said and I quote, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Why when we follow this motto through everything we do in Star Trek decide to ignore this in our everyday decisions and particularly in the greatest decision/referendum of our time or even the century?"

- This is a great question, one I ask myself a lot of times with huge government decisions or watching the news. Honestly I have no answer for. I guess some would blame religion or different backgrounds maybe even color of skin (sadly) where in trek they do have disagreements but when it comes to these items it doesn't matter. They are all working together for the great of humanity unlike today where we still think by country and needs of self instead of others.

Wish I can offer more with UK/EU part of the discussion.