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Posted Mon 07 Aug, 2017 4:36 AM
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Last edited by Allan Hood; Mon 07 Aug, 2017 4:40 AM.
I been discussing this with other ST fans and everyone seems to have a different interpretation, which is crazy; we have a canon full of stories on how this works out haha so we should agree, right?
From what I understand, when there's a change to the timeline, we have to go and fix it, like in "The City on the Edge of Forever." The Federation even had the Department of Temporal Investigations created to prevent contamination of the timeline.
As for the Kelvin timeline, it seems that there is now a created alternate timeline, where Spock didn't run off to the Guardian of Forever to prevent the contamination and save Romulus and Vulcan, which is where I hoped the story was going.
Okay, I totally understand that behind the scenes, this is a reboot created to not change the original canon, so we don't all freak out. Imagine if the original canon was thrown out? hahaha don't. Anyway, it seems they established a new canon in such a way that the original canon didn't get wiped out.
Spock says that Nero changed history, creating new events that we can't anticipate, an "alternate reality."
So, just so it's straight in my head, I'm saying that this alternate reality is simply an already existing parallel universe, that was accessible due to the Red Matter black hole connecting the two. Nero didn't merely travel back in time, but punched through the prime universe, back in time in the "alternate reality," parallel universe. Meaning, he didn't travel back in time in the prime universe, but back in time in an already existing parallel universe.
I'm getting this way of thinking from TNG's Parallels, where more than 285,000 Enterprises appear near a quantum fissure. I see it that the Red Matter creation of the black hole allowed Nero and Spock to traverse the fissure; it also weakened the barriers between quantum realities. Of course, Spock can't simply re-enter the fissure in his shuttle and emit the broad spectrum warp field to seal the fissure, due to the nature and properties of Red Matter, so I get that's off the table.
Does this make sense? Doesn't this explain the Kelvin Timeline relation to the Prime Timeline correctly?
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Posted Mon 07 Aug, 2017 5:07 AM
Well Nero destroying Vulcan is a paradox in all likelihood, unless Spock now having foreknowledge follows the same path, which he likely would not.
So that essentially ends the alternate reality in paradox around the time of the destruction of Romulus. If Romulus is saved it is likely by Spock, if Romulus is destroyed Spock failed. Though he would in the next iteration know how he failed (Red Matter). Eventually he would succeed and that timeline chain would collapse.
Bringing us back to the original in the prime universe happening as they did the first time again. Then the chain begins again until it ends in a wheel...of.....time....lol
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Posted Mon 07 Aug, 2017 6:30 AM
I think your explanation kinda covers it, I just think that the black hole meant he travelled to a parallel universe that was different anyway as the Kelvin wasn't really a prime vessel due to its clearly JJ design. Simply put, travelling back in time through a black hole takes you through universes as well as time. Don't think a quantum fissure would have anything to do with it, personally.
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Posted Tue 08 Aug, 2017 1:50 AM
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Last edited by Allan Hood; Tue 08 Aug, 2017 1:59 AM.
Well Nero destroying Vulcan is a paradox in all likelihood, unless Spock now having foreknowledge follows the same path, which he likely would not.
So that essentially ends the alternate reality in paradox around the time of the destruction of Romulus. If Romulus is saved it is likely by Spock, if Romulus is destroyed Spock failed. Though he would in the next iteration know how he failed (Red Matter). Eventually he would succeed and that timeline chain would collapse.
Bringing us back to the original in the prime universe happening as they did the first time again. Then the chain begins again until it ends in a wheel...of.....time....lol
Why would Nero destroying Vulcan be a paradox? Are you thinking it's going to cause a temporal causality loop? I don't think it will because they're in an "alternate reality" as Spock explains. You're thinking it's more like the USS Bozeman and the temporal distortion they found?
hahaha wheel...of...time....
I think your explanation kinda covers it, I just think that the black hole meant he travelled to a parallel universe that was different anyway as the Kelvin wasn't really a prime vessel due to its clearly JJ design. Simply put, travelling back in time through a black hole takes you through universes as well as time. Don't think a quantum fissure would have anything to do with it, personally.
Right, the quantum fissure by itself shouldn't lead to time travel, being a point in space that intersects many quantum realities. Technically, the black hole must have created a wormhole since a black hole would crush anything with it's gravity. According to general relativity, a rotating black hole could create a wormhole.
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Posted Tue 08 Aug, 2017 3:47 AM
The destruction of the Kelvin doesn't seem to be the diverging point. Ship design was very different all the way back into the 22nd Century, it didn't change after the Nerada, even if there was a technological leap that the prime universe didn't see. The little bits of history we get before that also don't really fit.
A lot does fit, but every timeline we see, from prime and mirror to Parallels and Tapestry, follows some narrow rules. Everybody ends up in the same place at the same time, even if the settings and preceding events are completely different. Intersections can throw a timeline off the rails, which happened to the Mirror Universe after Mirror Mirror, and the Kelvin universe after the Nerada arrived, so things might diverge much more profoundly from there (the technological leap forward, the destruction of Vulcan, Kirk becoming captain much sooner, Into Darkness happening), but that doesn't mean they were any more the same than the Mirror Universe.
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Posted Tue 08 Aug, 2017 9:40 PM
The destruction of the Kelvin doesn't seem to be the diverging point. Ship design was very different all the way back into the 22nd Century, it didn't change after the Nerada, even if there was a technological leap that the prime universe didn't see. The little bits of history we get before that also don't really fit.
Right, that's why I think the "Kelvin timeline" is an already existing parallel universe, that was accessible due to the Red Matter black hole connecting the two, which is really a wormhole. Nero didn't merely travel back in time, but punched through the prime universe, back in time in the "alternate reality," parallel universe. Meaning, he didn't travel back in time in the prime universe, but back in time in an already existing parallel universe.
A lot does fit, but every timeline we see, from prime and mirror to Parallels and Tapestry, follows some narrow rules. Everybody ends up in the same place at the same time, even if the settings and preceding events are completely different. Intersections can throw a timeline off the rails, which happened to the Mirror Universe after Mirror Mirror, and the Kelvin universe after the Nerada arrived, so things might diverge much more profoundly from there (the technological leap forward, the destruction of Vulcan, Kirk becoming captain much sooner, Into Darkness happening), but that doesn't mean they were any more the same than the Mirror Universe.
Check this out, "Unlike parallel universes, alternate timelines did not seem to diverge from the universe, but instead rewrote history to the point of wiping out the original timeline."
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Alternate_timeline
Now, I just found that the Kelvin timeline "...reality runs parallel to the prime reality as a new quantum reality, as the concept was explained by Data in the episode TNG: "Parallels"."
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Alternate_timeline
Every instance that the the timeline was violated, every single instance, it was negated, EXCEPT for the "Kelvin timeline," another reason I think it's really just a parallel universe.