[casualsto]

So, I'm not even sure what the point of most of your comment is other than to trying to once again bring politics into a friendly community discussion about Star Trek. You are the only one in this discussion (unless I missed it) that brought up sexual orientation and race. Neither of which has anything to do with this episode.

Also, you may want to look up the definition of "Mary Sue" because season 2 Burnham (like her or not) is an emotional mess that is constantly making mistakes and the one fight she was in she got her butt kicked. A true "Mary Sue" would be the stable, voice of reason, that is always right, always saving the day, and never loses a fight. Don't mistake Burnham being the main character of the show with her being a "Mary Sue".

I hope we can continue friendly discussions in this community about the franchise we love without having to slide pointless political topics that frankly just exists to trigger people.

Lol, did you just use the word "to trigger"?

It is a friendly discussion and an open talk, a show of opinions.

A Mary Sue attempt is clear on the behalf of the writers for Burnham.

This show clearly is offensively inclusive in the sense that inclusiveness becomes blatant. And too many "good boy points" signal the issue here.

Adults also have views on politics. This a forum of adults, as far as I knew.

Star Trek was already ahead of its time and inclusionary when it came to challenging norms and points of view, but Discovery ends up being a SJW picture if you pick the points and see the right patterns through.

Since when did sexual orientation, race, color or politic views became taboo? These are particularities that define groups and individuals and making these into no-go zones of talk would be a bad sign... When it comes to friendly inclusion.

On the other hand, people should have varied opinions, since if all of us would state the same ideas, we'd be in an echo chamber. And also different views and interpretation points are mostly welcome - or at least should be.

I'm trying to make a point out of your reply (excepting the Mary Sue part where I agree that I was somewhat ambiguous and that further explanation may be required so that my point stands fully valid.)

[LogicalLeopard]

To me, Starfleet is a scientific and exploration fleet which has the secondary purpose of a defense force. The military ranks provide an organizational structure to Starfleet's operations. Combat is not a primary concern to Starfleet but one they acknowledge due to the many threats ships on exploration and scientific duties may possibly face.

Yes. It just makes sense to combine all of that, unlike contemporary scientific organizations and militaries, because they are operating in space.

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***Moderator Note***

I will remind everyone to remain on topic. This thread is to discuss the episode and not the finer details of politics, sexual orientation,race or to question other member's "motives". Please remain on topic or your post will be deleted.

I will remain sitting on my typing fingers with this warning! *LOL* I was real close...

[Three of Seven]

I will remain sitting on my typing fingers with this warning! *LOL* I was real close...

The discussion we were having was going well I thought, we were both on topic, and discussing the wider point of Starfleet and wheelchairs, I just don't really have much further to add to it, neither of us would budge from the views we have. Wheelchairs pose many complex issues, I do have some insight into this with past work. Then you get into the discussion of if Discovery is a military, or science vessel, I would argue it is military, that was its main role during the war, because of its unique capabilities.

I do hope neither of us walked out of that discussion feeling attacked by the other.

[Rellimie]

The discussion we were having was going well I thought, we were both on topic, and discussing the wider point of Starfleet and wheelchairs, I just don't really have much further to add to it, neither of us would budge from the views we have. Wheelchairs pose many complex issues, I do have some insight into this with past work. Then you get into the discussion of if Discovery is a military, or science vessel, I would argue it is military, that was its main role during the war, because of its unique capabilities.

I do hope neither of us walked out of that discussion feeling attacked by the other.

I don't think the wheelchair/handicap discussion was an issue. I really don't think there were any issues overall with any of the discussion. I may have overstepped by pointing out a comment buried in another post and for that I apologize to all as it was not my place to respond to that comment. If a moderator wants to delete my post please do as I won't be upset and frankly I shouldn't have fallen into that trap. I do my best to sit on my hands but every now and again I can't help it. Star Trek has been my favorite franchise/show/movie/game for as long as I can remember. It sometimes gets to me when people try to wrap it up into the toxic side of politics and agendas that are so front and center in our world today. We should all live long and prosper, in peace and harmony.

That will be the last I will say regarding that. Anyways...

I love the discussions that we all have in this community about Star Trek which is one of the main reasons I am here, more so than gaming. I know Star Trek has always pushed the boundaries of the social norms of it's time which I think is great. The discussion about the viability of people with handicaps serving in the military is fantastic and while the US military does recruit people with disabilities, the work they can do is limited. I hope that a few hundred years from now technology and perception will advance to a point that people who want to serve, can serve and that most handicaps physical or otherwise can be cured and/or overcome. This is one of the joys of Star Trek, even Discovery with it's darker tone, is still spawning discussion about a brighter, more hopeful future just like every series before it (Season 1 aside of course).

[LogicalLeopard]

I know its tempting but we just don't want the thread to descend into an argument. As long as you are polite and on topic then we won't have any issues

Exactly. Im glad I didnt respond.

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The discussion we were having was going well I thought, we were both on topic, and discussing the wider point of Starfleet and wheelchairs, I just don't really have much further to add to it, neither of us would budge from the views we have. Wheelchairs pose many complex issues, I do have some insight into this with past work. Then you get into the discussion of if Discovery is a military, or science vessel, I would argue it is military, that was its main role during the war, because of its unique capabilities.

I do hope neither of us walked out of that discussion feeling attacked by the other.

Nooooo! Sorry, I wasn't referring to you! I saw some things in another post that almost prompted a response. Our conversation was fine!

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I don't think the wheelchair/handicap discussion was an issue. I really don't think there were any issues overall with any of the discussion. I may have overstepped by pointing out a comment buried in another post and for that I apologize to all as it was not my place to respond to that comment. If a moderator wants to delete my post please do as I won't be upset and frankly I shouldn't have fallen into that trap. I

Man, I almost dived headfirst into that trap, so I totally understand! *LOL*

[casualsto]

I'd state that the Discovery is quite similar to what it is in STO. A militarized version of a science/exploration ship.

It's basically repurposed, but it maintains its exploration aspect to create vulnerability around it. Just like TNG had its Galaxy Class.

Exploration remains the basic premise of Star Trek, excepting for DS9, where things were stationary.

The militarized Starfleet concept is added like butter to bread to make the conflict and sense of impending danger present in the mix.

And the meat of this sandwich should be the plot in itself. Which makes STD sometimes a vegan sandwich, but a sandwich nonetheless.

On a multi-mission ship, disabled personnel should be present only if their certain relevant skill would be invaluable and if the need of their presence outweighs the risks they're being exposed to.

But STD has a crazy desire of forced inclusion and variety, so sooner or later, I expect them to have a wooden coffee table as a member of the crew. Just for inclusion purposes. If it identifies as a coffee table, who are we to judge? 😁

[Morris]

Is it wrong that I've got this bad feeling in the back of my head, that Dr. Gabrielle Burnham is destined to become the Borg Queen, originating the Borg?

The timesuit apparently has the capacity to hold the sphere's complete knowledge.

The timesuit is now damaged, possibly allowing it to travel into the past, and remain untethered to the future. This damage may also facilitate the combination of the sphere's knowledge and Control's consciousness with the DNA-locked passenger inside the timesuit. Should that happen, Dr. Burnham's last act as herself, or perhaps some action by the crew of Discovery, could send the timesuit on one last journey through time and space, resulting in the Borg's origination in the Delta Quadrant, far away from the Federation, and ultimately forgotten, until Q reacquainted them in TNG.

Discovery's show crew (not the ship crew) was eager, early on, to reimagine the Borg. Maybe there was a reason for that...the writers had already indicated to them that they would be headed in that direction.

This is all speculation, but if my suspicions are foolish, what better day to voice them than April Fool's Day!

I hope that it's not true, but I suspect that is where all of this season is headed, sadly.

Cheers!!!

[LogicalLeopard]

Is it wrong that I've got this bad feeling in the back of my head, that Dr. Gabrielle Burnham is destined to become the Borg Queen, originating the Borg?

The timesuit apparently has the capacity to hold the sphere's complete knowledge.

The timesuit is now damaged, possibly allowing it to travel into the past, and remain untethered to the future. This damage may also facilitate the combination of the sphere's knowledge and Control's consciousness with the DNA-locked passenger inside the timesuit. Should that happen, Dr. Burnham's last act as herself, or perhaps some action by the crew of Discovery, could send the timesuit on one last journey through time and space, resulting in the Borg's origination in the Delta Quadrant, far away from the Federation, and ultimately forgotten, until Q reacquainted them in TNG.

Discovery's show crew (not the ship crew) was eager, early on, to reimagine the Borg. Maybe there was a reason for that...the writers had already indicated to them that they would be headed in that direction.

This is all speculation, but if my suspicions are foolish, what better day to voice them than April Fool's Day!

I hope that it's not true, but I suspect that is where all of this season is headed, sadly.

Cheers!!!

You may not be wrong. The easy thing to think in this circumstance is that Leland is going to end up getting stranded in time and space chasing the suit, and he'll end up becoming the first Borg. But they might do a fake and make Burnham's mom the Borg.

[Mack]

I mean, that’s the only way this would make the whole Leyland thing bit more acceptable to a certain degree. I’m still not a fan of accepting that some how Federation was involved with creation of Borg. But that’s also something already pointed out with the V’ger ship in the TMP films where the ship recognized a human satellite as creator.

But yea, the fact that federation has already created a time traveling space suit, the borg nanite tech and AI conscious, it’s not sitting well with me. Look I’m just not a fan of their science driven plot so far. The suit has high storage capacity but Airiam didn’t .... ah well. I just don’t think science imagining in regards to already set precedent by Treks before it was a strong suite of current writers.

[casualsto]

I think this DSC plot-line swirls the universe around starfleet - narcissisticly.

It's all cause of the federation. The borg is now federation-based. This is insane. Centering the universe around us. Just like in the middle age days, when we thought the sun was spinning around the earth...

[Three of Seven]

It could very well be the V'ger, which was a probe sent by Earth that got sucked into a black hole, as I recall. But it'd be strange bringing it into Discovery, as it messes with the continuity of the established timeline of events. Whatever it is, if it has been created by humans, or the Federation, it really wouldn't be a suprise, both are known to make things that cause trouble...

[Morris]

I think this DSC plot-line swirls the universe around starfleet - narcissisticly.

It's all cause of the federation. The borg is now federation-based. This is insane. Centering the universe around us. Just like in the middle age days, when we thought the sun was spinning around the earth...

Like in many forms of entertainment throughout history, Star Trek sometimes incorporates contemporary social and political issues into its plotlines. Discovery tries to do this as well, though often very heavy-handedly. Because these stories are written by humans, and they incorporate contemporary issues, they can seem human-centric, or 'narcissistic' as you put it.

Since stories associated with aliens/people from other planets are written by humans, and have zero source material to associate to a genuine 'alien-to-Earth' species, it is fairly easy to see the human-centricity in these types of stories...especially when the associations are as blatant as they are in Discovery.

What has always been the wonderful thing about Star Trek is the hopeful, aspirational outlook for humanity's future! With that as a throughline, I can accept stories being centered on humans and the Federation, as it makes it easier for those enjoying Star Trek to associate themselves, and their own behaviors, with those represented in the stories being told.

That being said, I'm not excited about Discovery possibly doing a Borg origin story...I'm not a fan of Discovery in general, and I don't agree with your general statement, for the reasons stated above.

[Scarlett]

Yea, so.

*sigh*

I mean, all that work for the Red Angel and then ...

*sigh*

[casualsto]

Like in many forms of entertainment throughout history, Star Trek sometimes incorporates contemporary social and political issues into its plotlines. Discovery tries to do this as well, though often very heavy-handedly. Because these stories are written by humans, and they incorporate contemporary issues, they can seem human-centric, or 'narcissistic' as you put it.

Since stories associated with aliens/people from other planets are written by humans, and have zero source material to associate to a genuine 'alien-to-Earth' species, it is fairly easy to see the human-centricity in these types of stories...especially when the associations are as blatant as they are in Discovery.

What has always been the wonderful thing about Star Trek is the hopeful, aspirational outlook for humanity's future! With that as a throughline, I can accept stories being centered on humans and the Federation, as it makes it easier for those enjoying Star Trek to associate themselves, and their own behaviors, with those represented in the stories being told.

That being said, I'm not excited about Discovery possibly doing a Borg origin story...I'm not a fan of Discovery in general, and I don't agree with your general statement, for the reasons stated above.

I respect your point of view and agree that the fed-centric storyline is natural, but making them the cause of multiple events that brought some of the strongest races from distant quadrants... Is crappy gravity-welled content. In the TNG and Voyager/DS9 shows even if things were federation centric, the plotline had a certain modesty, even if the federation was the dominant coalition. The show had plot, the show had believable antagonists. Now federation has created the borgs... Federation is the Alpha and the Omega. Even if in the cannon origins, borgs seem to be most probably older than the federation, but so far that they wouldn't interfere with the Beta quadrant.

The great character/antagonist writing comes when you don't create origin ties. Emotional response doesn't mean always good antagonists.

The joker from the batman universe is one of the best antagonists. Yet his origin is not confirmed, even if tied to batman via multiple speculations.

There is something powerful about antagonists that aren't made by the protagonists.

[Strathkin]

On the other hand, people should have varied opinions, since if all of us would state the same ideas, we'd be in an echo chamber. And also different views and interpretation points are mostly welcome - or at least should be.

I'd give you +5 just for that comment alone! We should 'all' listen to ideas, different view points, regardless who raises them, and be far less quick to discount others. Perhaps they've seen, heard, read, or experienced something we hadn't, because our time is spent somewhere else. I had wished a few who disagreed with you, rather than having assumed the worst, would have instead taken the time to ask:

When you said, "...………………………" may I ask what made you raise that point, or what lead you to that understanding?

A simply clarifying question, first seeks clarity or context to why an idea, suggestion, or point was is raised. Only when we attempt a more friendly dialog, are we going to get to understand why the comment was made, otherwise we allow our prejudices to cloud our view, and we could be entirely wrong on who we thought they were. Then we only have ourselves to blame.

A community only works when we recognize 'value' in all perspectives, knowledge, expertise, life experience, preferences, and interests; in fact I'd like to hope or 'believe' that is why we all 'love' Star Trek! Because it values everyone, and believes everyone has something to offer, plus the inspiring vision Gene envisioned for Humanity.

"... the prejudices people feel about each other disappear when they get to know each other." ──James T. Kirk, 'Elaan of Troyius'

As a Community Volunteer in the STO Forums for almost 4 years, I often wished people would do that more often, and ask themselves if I were them how would I like them to respond?

Kind Regards,
Strathkin

- - - UPDATE - - -
I'm surprised to see the debate has been quite lively, a few days after posting the article on Borg Origin, there's been quite a bit of lively debate. I almost would have though I had written the article, given how much I agreed with her.

CASUALSTO: While I didn't quite agree with the first sentence you wrote above, I could perhaps at least understand why some, perhaps many 'may' feel that way. I'm more open minded, as it has a lot of parallels to our world today, so really curious to see how it evolves. But I thought your writing from this point forward raises some good points, "In TNG and Voyager/DS9 shows even..."