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Posted Sun 29 Jul, 2018 10:03 PM
Not Much else to watch these days either via TV or Streaming (most new stuff sucks and everything else is old that we've already probably seen 100 times) so I watched Discovery, I LOVED the episode directed by Jonathan Frakes. I have to also state that I think the Orville is awesome and I wouldn't bat an eyelid if they added something from the Orville into STO for fun! also anything new they add to STO usually has some useful purpose or something I can get out of it so we'll just wait and see
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 12:22 AM
I was very sceptical of the show before it aired. I didn't like that it was set before TOS and even more when they announced that it was set in the Prime Universe since that opens up so many ways to screw up the canon (which some might say they already did by making Spock now have an adopted sister that moving on timeline wise will never, ever be mentioned by him regardless of how they portray their relationship in Discovery.) Nor did I like the look the ship too much either but I vowed that I would give it a few episodes to see what it was like and I personally enjoyed it.
Does it have it's issues? Sure. I'm pretty much going to echo Sammy here in that Discovery's biggest issue is focusing solely on one character, at least for the first season. There was Lorca and Tyler but for the most part the focus was on Burnham. Perhaps this had something to do with the fact it was only 15 episodes and her and Lorca were pretty much the driving force of the story ark but for a show that's always been about the relationships between the crew, be it TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY or even ENT the main driving force for most of them was the characters and the relationships between them.
However with that said other shows in Trek have suffered from that as well. Voyager in particular did. They shoved all of Harry Kim's potential stories into one episode of season 2 with an occasional episode like The Chute but that was it for him and from Season 4 onwards it pretty much became the Janeway, Seven and Doctor show with everybody else slipping into the background.
They have said that season 2 will be more like the classic Trek and we know at least two characters that will be getting more attention in season 2 being Tilly as she continues on her path to becoming a Captain as well as Dr Culber who will be returning from the dead and his whole experience so who knows.
Another thing to take into consideration is the season length. TOS had 29 episodes in it's first season and that's not including the two pilot episodes, 26 in it's second season and 24 in it's 3rd. TNG had 26 episodes in it's first season, 22 in it's second and 26 again for every season after that. DS9 too had 26 episodes in it's first season. Voyager only had 16 in it's first season and Enterprise had 26 episodes as well.
So taking that into consideration apart for Voyager every other series of Trek had a full 26 episode season for it's first year and 29 in TOS's case so they had plenty more opportunities to spread out character focus and development as well as having more standalone stories. Now you could say that Voyager managed to spread the focus and do things and they only had 1 episode more than Discovery did and while that is true, everybody who worked on Voyager had also been working on the other Trek series too which has to be taken into consideration.
Now if rumour is to be believed season 2 of Discovery is going to be a 13 episode story ark, now if that's just the main story with a few stand alones added in to or not we don't know but assuming they have a 13 episode season or match the 15 episode number that season 1 had, that still means that their 2 full seasons still equal less overall episodes than every other Trek series since even Voyager after season 1 had a full 26 episode run per season until it ended.
With that reduced episode number, plus having a more season spanning story to tell rather than a bunch of standalone "alien of the week" type shows that most of the other Trek's did some things will be different whether we like it or not but it's something I feel you have to take into consideration.
When it comes to the STO Age of Discovery content, for the most part I'm again going to echo somebody else in this thread because they said it as well as I would and that's Sul-Matuul whether you like it or not not only is it up to the people who own Trek to decide what it or isn't canon but you also have to accept the fact that Discovery, just like the JJ Trek movies introduced a whole new legion of fans to Trek and if those fans start playing STO because of the new stuff then that just prolongs the life of the game and that's a good thing as is the potential for more content coming to the game based around future Trek be it Discovery or something else down the line which is also a good thing for the longevity of the game.
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 1:45 AM
Now if rumour is to be believed season 2 of Discovery is going to be a 13 episode story arc, now if that's just the main story with a few stand alones added in to or not we don't know but assuming they have a 13 episode season or match the 15 episode number that season 1 had, that still means that their 2 full seasons still equal less overall episodes than every other Trek series since even Voyager after season 1 had a full 26 episode run per season until it ended.
Unless you're running a low/no special effects show like a serial crime drama like Blue Bloods or Madam Secretary, don't expect the 26 episode seasons of yore, especially with Disco, as the special effects budget alone, along with the time it takes to finish post-production as well, makes churning out a 26 episode season impractical.
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 11:08 AM
Unless you're running a low/no special effects show like a serial crime drama like Blue Bloods or Madam Secretary, don't expect the 26 episode seasons of yore, especially with Disco, as the special effects budget alone, along with the time it takes to finish post-production as well, makes churning out a 26 episode season impractical.
Yeah probably true, but that also means that the goalposts have effectively been moved in current times for TV shows. Whereas in the 80's/90's a show would have 24+ episodes to have a good chance and probably at least 3 seasons, now a lot of shows are lucky to get even a single full run.
So in the current age of internet and 24hr news and constant scrutiny shows are under a lot of pressure that those of the past never had to contend with.
It's why i think ST.D should at least be given a chance seeing as its first season was less than half the length of every other Trek show's equivalent (bar Voy). First seasons are always shaky for any show.
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 12:42 PM
Unless you're running a low/no special effects show like a serial crime drama like Blue Bloods or Madam Secretary, don't expect the 26 episode seasons of yore, especially with Disco, as the special effects budget alone, along with the time it takes to finish post-production as well, makes churning out a 26 episode season impractical.
This is true, I wasn't mentioning it it terms of expecting Discovery to get a longer episode count per season but in regards to people not taking that into consideration when talking about the lack of certain things with Discovery compared to old Trek.
It's why i think ST.D should at least be given a chance seeing as its first season was less than half the length of every other Trek show's equivalent (bar Voy). First seasons are always shaky for any show.
This was my point exactly. With a full length season there's more room to mix in standalone episodes and episodes focusing on individual characters and their interactions whereas with a reduced episode number per season they have to compress the main story ark mixed in with some character development and keep it all making sense in a 43 minute window but with a reduced total number of episodes with which to do it. But when you have 26 episodes in which to spread all of that out you can obviously do more. I do agree with you that I think people should give season 2 a chance simply because it's set in the main universe and by that I don't mean the Prime Universe timeline but the main universe and not the Mirror Universe which is where I think they went wrong in the first season story telling wise.
They shouldn't have done that for the first season, not when you have to establish the universe, introduce the characters and develop their relationships. If they had spent the first season dealing with the Klingons, exploring the war and even Tyler's ark but kept it in the main universe they could have had more standalone episodes that focused on building the interactions with the crew more while being relatively safe in terms of having backup and more areas of space that were relatively safe in comparison to the mirror universe where they were pretty much constantly under threat all the time if they were found out and not having any backup to help them if they got into trouble. If they had done that and then in season 2 or later sent them to the Mirror Universe perhaps things would have been different.
They didn't do that however and that I think was the mistake. You put them in the mirror universe, cutting them off from any aid and support and make them have to pretend to be their mirror selves which we all know are essential evil versions of themselves but they did it before we even knew really what their good versions were like. Even Tyler's ark I would say was done too soon. Keep the whole Klingon personality in tact but give us more time to know the real Tyler before the transformation that way it would have a much better impact and we as viewers would actually give a damn about him more. It's why Picard's transformation into Locutus was so successful because this was a guy we had got to know over the course of 3 seasons, imagine if they had done that to him in season 1, would we really have cared as much about it by that point in comparison?
With season 2 by the sounds of it we'll be getting more of those kind of episodes and things and part of that I feel has to be because they're back in the main universe and if they do that then that great and people should give that a chance because it sounds like season 2 is going to be what season 1 should have been if they'd just flipped it around in order of how they did it.
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 1:17 PM
Everyone going to have their opinions about the shows. My father for one hates all the series except TOS and only considers it canon. lol. Yea, a business may say what is canon but to the person or individuals can also make that call and only watch or collect to that certain timeframe/show. Hate to bring Star Wars into this but you can see this when disney bought lucasfilm and made all past comics/books/fan shows/games and etc all non-canon just because they bought it from lucasfilm. Many, many disagree with this and made up in their own mind that they still are and new stuff isnt lol.
Causing a rant about how something needs to be accepted and bullying basically one that said they were boycotting it doesn't help your cause to be honest. I've only seen first couple episodes of Discovery. In another thread I already gave my thoughts on it. But I'm not going to boycott it in sto and if I did it be over more temporal garbage before Discovery. If one thing happens with this new arc in sto I hope they made star trek, star trek again about
To explore strange new worlds
To seek out new life and new civilizations
To boldly go where no man has gone before
This is star trek to me and I'm seeing less and less of this and more the route of Star Wars. When the company that owns the franchise doesn't understand Gene's vision that's when people have a problem and boycott shows/games.
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 1:18 PM
One thing to remember too is that it wasn't until much later in TNG that we acutally moved onto plot arcs in Trek. TOS and a vast majority of TNG were simply "alien of the week" episodes with no link to past events (unless a crew members died - Tasha). So there was no development of the outside universe to look at and say "ah so that's what the Federation is up to now".
It wasn't until DS9 that we had any sort of long running plot or any real background story, and DS9's setting really helped in that sense because the galaxy came TO them rather than the characters simply passing through it.
ST.D seemed to set things up a bit more imo, it showed us what a mess the Klingons are in before the attempts to unite them. It showed us that the Federation is a bit more desperate in times of war than the rose-tinted TNG showed us.
If S2 expands on things a bit more within a time period we know nothing about i think it should be a fun ride.
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 1:21 PM
–
Last edited by Scarlett; Mon 30 Jul, 2018 2:39 PM.
And yet, the trick with universe-building (ala Babylon 5) for Star Trek is that it's already built. Also, there is character-building so the viewer gets invested in them to help get into their involvement in the story. STD didn't really do this well with a serial format! AND put behind a paywall, I believe CBS *couldn't* be patient per episode.
So, I agree with Vox overall. Prequel shows are tough and STD had a very steep hill to climb.
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Post ID: 366713
#24
Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 1:24 PM
I just want to say, I love the acronym STD for Discovery, it sums up my feelings of the show in a neat package, I don't want it, but I've got it now anyway.
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 1:26 PM
I just want to say, I love the acronym STD for Discovery, it sums up my feelings of the show in a neat package, I don't want it, but I've got it now anyway.
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 2:18 PM
–
Last edited by Arno12; Mon 30 Jul, 2018 2:44 PM.
I'm giving the Disco expansion a chance, the 1st season had it rough given the situation with Fuller, hopefully the'll have their legs this season, I mean the spin-off comics have been enjoyable and i'm sure the writers at cryptic will do a better job with he story telling at least .
Reminds of when I was a kid and my uncle introduced me to trek, he introduced me to TOS actually cuz he hated TNG, the new ship, the uniforms the Ferengi, the new look of the romulans, hell he even had a gripe about the klingons 180 in regards to their behavior. He always thought of them as devious villains, not warriors devoted to honor, he loved DS9 though, probably the only 90's trek he actually liked.
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 3:30 PM
One thing to remember too is that it wasn't until much later in TNG that we acutally moved onto plot arcs in Trek. TOS and a vast majority of TNG were simply "alien of the week" episodes with no link to past events (unless a crew members died - Tasha). So there was no development of the outside universe to look at and say "ah so that's what the Federation is up to now".
It wasn't until DS9 that we had any sort of long running plot or any real background story, and DS9's setting really helped in that sense because the galaxy came TO them rather than the characters simply passing through it.
ST.D seemed to set things up a bit more imo, it showed us what a mess the Klingons are in before the attempts to unite them. It showed us that the Federation is a bit more desperate in times of war than the rose-tinted TNG showed us.
If S2 expands on things a bit more within a time period we know nothing about i think it should be a fun ride.
This is true but even then DS9 didn't go with a running plot until season 3 when they really invested in the war with the Dominion, the first two seasons were much more alien of the week type episodes and gave enough character development over time so that when the war did kick off we had connected with the characters.We knew them, their backstories, their relationships with each other. We cared. Voyager was the only other show that kicked off with a running plot from the get go but they had the perfect framework to do it, their overall ark was getting home and although they had the occasional episode that was purely focused on doing that they had plenty of other "alien of the week" episodes much like The X Files. A large part of the show were the monster of the week types and every now and then you'd get a mythology episode thrown in there to shake it up and keep the overall main story going.
And yet, the trick with universe-building (ala Babylon 5) for Star Trek is that it's already built. Also, there is character-building so the viewer gets invested in them to help get into their involvement in the story. STD didn't really do this well with a serial format! AND put behind a paywall, I believe CBS *couldn't* be patient per episode.
So, I agree with Vox overall. Prequel shows are tough and STD had a very steep hill to climb.
ST already had a steep hill to climb being a new series, being a prequel made it an even steeper hill to climb and then to really add to it they decide to set it 10 years before TOS.
What's even worse for ST is that we've already had a prequel show set in the Prime Trek Universe that whether you love Enterprise as a series or not, at least did a pretty good first season in terms of building their world, character establishment and with them being set 100 years before TOS and not 10 they had plenty of wiggle room to do things without affecting the established canon overall. Character wise the first season mostly focused on Archer, T'Pol and Trip primarily but there were other episodes during the season that focused on other characters in comparison to ST, now while you can say that Enterprise had a 26 episode season to ST's 15, they picked the right framework and stories to do it with.
If you look back at history, while advances will be made on the small scale in a decade unless you have a significant event like a 9/11 or a President Trump, globally changing things don't necessarily happen often and in that regard 10 years isn't really a long time to do much when you know whatever you're planning has to lead into a universe that has been established for half a century....unless of course you don't care about breaking that history so that nothing makes sense.
Ideally for true creative freedom they should have set the show either earlier in the timeline or post Voyager. Earlier in the timeline but post Enterprise they would have had a lot more years to do what they wanted without having to worry as much about leading into TOS timeline wise and post Voyager outside of games like STO and books which aren't always considered canon since not everybody reads the novels or plays the games you can do pretty much whatever you want without having any impact on the established timeline.
As for Discovery's first season, looking back on it it's an okay season of Star Trek I think....as long as it was done as a different season of the show. As a first season of a show, it's not that good. Hopefully the second season will be better.
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Posted Mon 30 Jul, 2018 4:03 PM
At risk of sounding like an ignoramus ( I don't really watch a ton of Discovery) I honestly thought that Discovery was a "future of the Star Trek universe" show, not a prequel...
I don't really like it plotwise (cool graphical effects though) but it is alas cannon.
And just like the new trilogy in Star Wars, while we might not like it, one day we will learn to at least tolerate Discovery. It'll just take time.
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Posted Tue 31 Jul, 2018 12:49 PM
I'll play it, sure, but I won't buy any mega packs for it, I really think the Orville is a better Sci-Fi show than Discoball......... Still its more missions, but I'm interested as to how it will fit into the canon of the game, considering you already have a TOS character that you start only a few years later than Disco's dates......
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Posted Wed 01 Aug, 2018 3:39 PM
I'll play it, sure, but I won't buy any mega packs for it, I really think the Orville is a better Sci-Fi show than Discoball......... Still its more missions, but I'm interested as to how it will fit into the canon of the game, considering you already have a TOS character that you start only a few years later than Disco's dates......
I watched the first season of The Orville and while I'll continue to watch it mainly because it's space based Sci-Fi...it was a struggle for me to get through a few of those episodes.