[LogicalLeopard]

Gooooooood question. Not meaning to touch Godwin's Law, would Benteen have been sanctioned for her actions, even though she was following orders?

If not, then the rest is moot.

If so, then how harsh would the follow-up action be?

Alternatively, we (i.e. not me) could say the Lakota is captained by another without mention of Benteen because of the probability she was removed from that post and not necessarily court-martialed or demoted, per se. Maybe transferred to cargo barge captaincy or whatever.

I tend to think that she wouldn't. Although it resulted in the death of officers, she was receiving a lawful order from a Vice Admiral, who told her that the ship stationed the closest to the Bajoran Wormhole was full of changelings heading toward Earth, following a "changeling" bombing a Federation/Romulan conference on Earth. Right during what is basically a Changeling crisis in the Alpha Quadrant, where Changeling infiltrators are assumed to be everywhere, and the Federation was preparing for attack. Given an order under those circumstances, it seems reasonable to follow them. It's also worth noting that she obeyed the order to stop the Defiant, but didn't follow the one to destroy it, using good insight and judgement. I think it all washes out evenly.

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[Scarlett]

In other words: Benteen is likely to still be the Captain of the Lakota

[LogicalLeopard]

In other words: Benteen is likely to still be the Captain of the Lakota

Yeah, I'd think so! Unless someone really had it out for her politically for being a Leyton lackey. But that's hard to do, given the circumstances. I'd say she'd pass that Court Martial with flying colors, and it'd be weird to reassign her after a successful court martial. I'd think it'd be more likely for her to retain command of the Lakota and be given some bad assignment away from Earth.

But now that I think of it, that's hard to do, because I believe they were at war with the Klingons at the time, and the next year the Dominion War starts. She'd have the opportunity to serve with distinction and clear her name completely.

But, that brings us to the same choice. Although it's unlikely in my opinion that she was punished, she may not have the Lakota due to promotion or a positive reassignment. Or, uh...death. Lot of casualties in the Dominion War. So I guess it's just a call of what works best.

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[WelshAvenger]

It's always a tricky one. I've been in the military and there are certain times when you can refuse an order but if i remember the episode, wasn't Benteen told that the Defiant was a threat so she was firing on it based on the intel she was given? If so, I can see that she would be reassigned for a few years to think about what she did before being handed back the Lakota. So it is possible that she would have it back as it's not exactly a top of the line ship anymore.

[LogicalLeopard]

It's always a tricky one. I've been in the military and there are certain times when you can refuse an order but if i remember the episode, wasn't Benteen told that the Defiant was a threat so she was firing on it based on the intel she was given? If so, I can see that she would be reassigned for a few years to think about what she did before being handed back the Lakota. So it is possible that she would have it back as it's not exactly a top of the line ship anymore.

Yes, not only a threat, but she was told it was full of Changelings after a Changeling had supposedly bombed a Romulan/Federation conference on Earth. She obeyed the order to stop the Defiant, but did not obey the subsequent order to destroy it.

The only thing I can see that would get her moved is the connection to Layton, even though she eventually turned on him. He was the one that gave her the command. But the Dominion War happens the next year, and I think they were at war with the Klingons right during that episode, although it never really got bad, because the Klingons were basically fighting a war on two fronts, the Cardassians being on the other front.

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[WelshAvenger]

Yes, not only a threat, but she was told it was full of Changelings after a Changeling had supposedly bombed a Romulan/Federation conference on Earth. She obeyed the order to stop the Defiant, but did not obey the subsequent order to destroy it.

The only thing I can see that would get her moved is the connection to Layton, even though she eventually turned on him. He was the one that gave her the command. But the Dominion War happens the next year, and I think they were at war with the Klingons right during that episode, although it never really got bad, because the Klingons were basically fighting a war on two fronts, the Cardassians being on the other front.

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See? I'm glad someone remembers the episode better than I do So if she obeyed believing that they were a changeling army but stopped short of destroying the ship, it's hard to see why she'd be punished at all. Sure, maybe she'd be called into a court martial to explain herself but she wouldn't possibly be charged. With that in mind I think it'd be nice to have a very brief cameo of Benteen.

[Silynn]

If a Mutineer can be pardoned for her actions against her Captain in the face of the enemy (ST), then firing on a ship of suspected Changlings is akin to a speeding ticket, right?

I have faith that whatever reason to keep Benteen as Captain will be 1000x better than how the writers/director bring Spock back into ST.

I really do like the touch of something from an actual episode interwoven into ARES. Pretty exciting.

[LogicalLeopard]

See? I'm glad someone remembers the episode better than I do So if she obeyed believing that they were a changeling army but stopped short of destroying the ship, it's hard to see why she'd be punished at all. Sure, maybe she'd be called into a court martial to explain herself but she wouldn't possibly be charged. With that in mind I think it'd be nice to have a very brief cameo of Benteen.

I had forgotten the episode. That just came from a Memory Alpha search! It's also helpful that you can find the scripts from all the episodes online at http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/episodes.htm to fill in the gaps and put some perspective in there.

I think it would be nice, too! Or at least a name check.

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[Scarlett]

Name checks are better imo.

Excellent discussion

[Asteropax]

If a Mutineer can be pardoned for her actions against her Captain in the face of the enemy (ST), then firing on a ship of suspected Changlings is akin to a speeding ticket, right?

People died and she knew she was firing on fellow Starfleet Officers during the engagement with the Defiant.

2 Dialogues taken directly from the transcript of DS9 Season 4 Episode: Paradise Lost -

First,between Leyton and Sisko:

BENTEEN [OC]: I understand the situation, Admiral. I'll do my best.
LEYTON: Good luck, Captain Benteen. Leyton out.
(Sisko enters, armed.)
LEYTON: Are you planning on using that?
SISKO: Against a fellow officer? I hope not. But I will have to ask for your resignation.
(Sisko takes Leyton's comm. badge.)
LEYTON: You'll forgive me if I don't leap at the opportunity.
SISKO: I have enough evidence to convict you of treason.
LEYTON: Do you?
SISKO: We have Lieutenant Arriaga in custody. He is prepared to admit that under your orders he attached a subspace modulator to the relay satellite on the far side of the wormhole. That is why it was opening and closing at random.
LEYTON: Why would anyone want to do that?
SISKO: To make it look like a cloaked Dominion fleet was entering Federation space so that when the Earth's power relays were sabotaged, the people would think that an invasion was imminent.
LEYTON: That's a very interesting theory, but it's not going to do you much good. Lieutenant Arriaga isn't going to get to Earth. I've sent the Lakota to intercept the Defiant.
SISKO: You think that one Starfleet ship is going to fire on another?
LEYTON: As far as Captain Benteen's crew is concerned, the Defiant isn't a Starfleet ship. They've been told everyone on the Defiant has been replaced by shape-shifters.

The crew was informed that everyone aboard the Defiant were shapeshifters. There was no mention of Captain Benteen knowing or not here, but she did say she understood "the situation". Whether it was knowing the conspiracy was in possible jeopardy or if it was a possible shapeshifter threat is unknown.

Second, between Sisko, Leyton, and Benteen:

BENTEEN [on viewscreen]: Admiral, my orders were to disable the Defiant, not destroy her.
LEYTON: Your orders are to keep the Defiant from reaching Earth by any means necessary. Is that understood?
BENTEEN [on viewscreen]: Yes, it is.
SISKO: Captain, you know as well as I do that there aren't any shape-shifters on the Defiant. Use those quantum torpedoes and you will be killing fifty Starfleet officers.
LEYTON: Captain Benteen knows where her duty lies. You have your orders.
BENTEEN [on viewscreen]: Yes, sir.

This pretty much confirmed that she knew there were Starfleet Officers aboard the Defiant, not shapeshifters. Leyton probably filled her in on the real situation and had her lie to her crew about the situation.

A "speeding ticket" when you know you are firing on friendlies?

A few examples of episodes featuring disciplinary actions or prosecution -

TNG Season 7 Episode: Pegasus
- Admiral Pressman was court martialed for violating the Treaty of Algeron. Commander William Riker only received an inquiry into the matter.

TNG Season 5 Episode: The First Duty
- Cadet Wesely Crusher, along with two other Cadets, had a year's credits voided following an incident resulting in the death of another Cadet. He escaped expulsion after Cadet Nicholas Locarno accepted the full blame of the accident, getting expelled from the Academy as a result.

TOS Season 1 Episode: Court Martial
- Captain Kirk was pulled into a court martial over the death of a crewman. He was going to be declared guilty but was cleared when it was revealed the crewman, Lt. Commander Benjamin Finney, faked his death in a revenge attempt on Kirk.

VOY Series Premier: Caretaker
- Observer Tom Paris, later ship's helmsman, explained to Ensign Harry Kim that he was discharged from Starfleet after an incident resulted in the deaths of three other Starfleet Officers.

I know there are other examples but these are the ones which came to mind while reading through the discussion.

I have faith that whatever reason to keep Benteen as Captain will be 1000x better than how the writers/director bring Spock back into ST.

I really do like the touch of something from an actual episode interwoven into ARES. Pretty exciting.

Seeing how the issues resulting in deaths ended in the resignation / discharge / expulsion of the officers involved, it seems very likely Captain Benteen would've had to leave Starfleet as well. Even though she was not in charge, she was still heavily invested in a conspiracy to overthrow the Federation's government. In the real world's militaries, she would've been expelled from the armed forces and charged with treason along with everyone else involved.

At the same time, Starfleet was extremely light, almost innocently light, on people who'd committed crimes involving other people's deaths. None of the above officers went to prison for their actions resulting in the deaths of others. I find it possible she may have only experianced a court martial for her actions but was allowed to stay in Starfleet. It would be a guarantee Benteen was reduced in rank and would have to re-earn her stripes before sitting in the Captain's chair again.

This is a tough subject since we're talking about a character's fate following the episode we saw her in. I'll setup a poll so we can officially vote on how we'd like this to go. I'll abstain from voting since I want this to be your choice:

Is Erika Benteen the Captain of the Lakota?
Is Erika Benteen an Officer aboard the Lakota?
Is Erika Benteen no longer a member of Starfleet?

- - - Updated - - -

Poll now open!

[LogicalLeopard]

People died and she knew she was firing on fellow Starfleet Officers during the engagement with the Defiant.

The crew was informed that everyone aboard the Defiant were shapeshifters. There was no mention of Captain Benteen knowing or not here, but she did say she understood "the situation". Whether it was knowing the conspiracy was in possible jeopardy or if it was a possible shapeshifter threat is unknown.

I just discovered that Amazon Prime has all of the seasons of Star Trek, so maybe I can rewatch this tonight to be certain, but other dialogue appears to indicate that Benteen was likely told the Defiant was crewed by changelings.

Earlier on, Sisko is made head of Starfleet Security, I think in the episode before. He confronts Leyton on basically trying to establish military rule on Earth, and Leyton relieves him of the position and tells him to go back to DS9. Sisko doesn't.

Then, this happens:

President's office]

(Leyton, Benteen, and four armed security officers also present.)
SISKO: Admiral. I didn't expect to see you here.
LEYTON: I'm sure you didn't.
BENTEEN: Captain, your arm please?
JARESH-INYO: Do as she asks.
(The blood goes orange.)
LEYTON: Just as I said, Mister President. He's a shape-shifter.


So Leyton made it look like Sisko is a shapeshifter. Benteen sees this herself, either administering or demanding the blood test. So, when the scene begins, "I understand the situation," that likely means that Leyton has simply told her that more are coming.

Second, between Sisko, Leyton, and Benteen:

This pretty much confirmed that she knew there were Starfleet Officers aboard the Defiant, not shapeshifters. Leyton probably filled her in on the real situation and had her lie to her crew about the situation.

As said before, Benteen had no reason to trust Sisko, thinking he's a changeling. Seems like she might have been given pause when the order to destroy the Defiant came in. At one point, it is said that one good hit will finish off the Lakota. Worf, of course, doesn't do it. Maybe that made her rethink everything. At any rate, it doesn't seem like Benteen is a coconspirator, but more like a lackey being used.



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[Asteropax]

I just discovered that Amazon Prime has all of the seasons of Star Trek, so maybe I can rewatch this tonight to be certain, but other dialogue appears to indicate that Benteen was likely told the Defiant was crewed by changelings.

Earlier on, Sisko is made head of Starfleet Security, I think in the episode before. He confronts Leyton on basically trying to establish military rule on Earth, and Leyton relieves him of the position and tells him to go back to DS9. Sisko doesn't.

Then, this happens:

President's office]

(Leyton, Benteen, and four armed security officers also present.)
SISKO: Admiral. I didn't expect to see you here.
LEYTON: I'm sure you didn't.
BENTEEN: Captain, your arm please?
JARESH-INYO: Do as she asks.
(The blood goes orange.)
LEYTON: Just as I said, Mister President. He's a shape-shifter.


So Leyton made it look like Sisko is a shapeshifter. Benteen sees this herself, either administering or demanding the blood test. So, when the scene begins, "I understand the situation," that likely means that Leyton has simply told her that more are coming.

As said before, Leyton had no reason to trust Sisko, thinking he's a changeling. Seems like she might have been given pause when the order to destroy the Defiant came in. At one point, it is said that one good hit will finish off the Lakota. Word, of course, doesn't do it. Maybe that made her rethink everything.

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First, how was Benteen able to fake the blood screen? If they'd suspected Sisko was a Founder, he would never have made it into the President's Office. The conspirators wanted a grand show rather than a swift arrest to ensure everyone's safety. Seeing that she was the one who gave the test, she knew a way to beat it. Seeing how closely she and Admiral Leyton worked with Sisko on Earth's security, they learned not only how to fight shapeshifters but also ways to beat the tests. With her importance in the conspiracy, she knew all along that Sisko would fail the test she gave him.

Second, why disable a ship full of shapeshifters instead of destroying it? There was no point in her contacting Admiral Leyton during the fight if she really received word that the Founders had commandeered the ship. Given the paranoia about the Dominion, the Lakota would've fought the Defiant to the death without hesitation if the ship really was taken over by the Dominion. Benteen also held back from using Quantum Torpedoes, their best weapons, throughout the fight as well which makes no tactical sense.

Thrid, why wasn't a whole squadron of ships sent out to engage the Defiant if she'd been commandeered by the Founders? Multiple ships chased after the USS Prometheus during VOY Season 4 Episode: Message in a Bottle when it was taken over by Romulans. The more firepower, the greater the success. If a ship had been commandeered and was heading towards Earth, the entirety of Starfleet would've been put on alert. Dispatching 1 ship to stop a potential threat against Earth after what happened at Wolf 359 with 39 ships destroyed against 1 enemy would be insanity on Starfleet's end. This was kept a secret instead.

Fourth, did she know the Defiant had Starfleet officers on it? In the first transcript I included, it specifically stated that the crew of the USS Lakota were informed of shapeshifters aboard the USS Defiant, not her Captain. In the second transcript, when she contacted Admiral Leyton about their inability to stop the Defiant under their current circumstances, she explained her orders were to disable the Defiant. She would've used the Quantum Torpedoes stored aboard her ship without hesitation. With the pause she made during the heat of battle and her willingness to suddenly tell her crew, who thought they were fighting for the Federation, to stand down shows she knew all along that there were no Founders aboard.

[LogicalLeopard]

First, how was Benteen able to fake the blood screen? If they'd suspected Sisko was a Founder, he would never have made it into the President's Office. The conspirators wanted a grand show rather than a swift arrest to ensure everyone's safety. Seeing that she was the one who gave the test, she knew a way to beat it. Seeing how closely she and Admiral Leyton worked with Sisko on Earth's security, they learned not only how to fight shapeshifters but also ways to beat the tests. With her importance in the conspiracy, she knew all along that Sisko would fail the test she gave him.

First off, I've just watched the last part of that episode, and I am beginning to see things a bit more your way. The problem is, watching the video instead of reading the text isn't all that much more revealing, because it's not like Benteen's facial expressions really give much away.

To your first point, Sisko and Benteen speak a bit before this scene, and she says it's a shame that Sisko won't see her take command of the Lakota, because he's been ordered back to DS9. He tells her he's taking some leave. Next scene is him coming into the Presidents office and Benteen taking the test. It is a big show, like you said. But is Benteen a part of it? We don't know, but the way the scene is set up before, you'd think that. But it's not definite. Oh, and we don't know how the blood screen was faked. Sisko asks Leyton how he faked it, Leyton asks if it matters, and Sisko, in a holding cell, supposed it doesn't. Did Benteen know? Impossible to tell. She could have been given a rigged hypo from Layton, but due to the proximity of the scene before, it seems like we're meant to think she's in on it.

Leyton has recruited people who have worked under him for key positions, including Sisko. Benteen is mentioned being the most loyal. Is she in on it? Or is she just the most easily duped by Leyton because if her loyalty? We don't know.

Second, why disable a ship full of shapeshifters instead of destroying it? There was no point in her contacting Admiral Leyton during the fight if she really received word that the Founders had commandeered the ship. Given the paranoia about the Dominion, the Lakota would've fought the Defiant to the death without hesitation if the ship really was taken over by the Dominion. Benteen also held back from using Quantum Torpedoes, their best weapons, throughout the fight as well which makes no tactical sense.

I think it was said that she was going to board the Defiant, so that could be because she couldn't be sure that everyone was a shapeshifter and wanted to test them. Or it could be because she knew they weren't and just wanted to delay them. The latter seems more likely.

Thrid, why wasn't a whole squadron of ships sent out to engage the Defiant if she'd been commandeered by the Founders? Multiple ships chased after the USS Prometheus during VOY Season 4 Episode: Message in a Bottle when it was taken over by Romulans. The more firepower, the greater the success. If a ship had been commandeered and was heading towards Earth, the entirety of Starfleet would've been put on alert. Dispatching 1 ship to stop a potential threat against Earth after what happened at Wolf 359 with 39 ships destroyed against 1 enemy would be insanity on Starfleet's end. This was kept a secret instead.

A whole squadron wasn't sent because Leyton was only sending his handpicked people. Here's where it gets fun. Does Benteen know about then conspiracy and understand why she's the only ship dispatched, or does she not know and question it internally, so that later she puts it all together and turns on Leyton?

Fourth, did she know the Defiant had Starfleet officers on it? In the first transcript I included, it specifically stated that the crew of the USS Lakota were informed of shapeshifters aboard the USS Defiant, not her Captain. In the second transcript, when she contacted Admiral Leyton about their inability to stop the Defiant under their current circumstances, she explained her orders were to disable the Defiant. She would've used the Quantum Torpedoes stored aboard her ship without hesitation. With the pause she made during the heat of battle and her willingness to suddenly tell her crew, who thought they were fighting for the Federation, to stand down shows she knew all along that there were no Founders aboard.

Here's the most frustrating thing about it. The most important scenes happen off camera. We don't see what Leyton tells her prior to her saying she understands, and we don't see what she tells Worf later when she hails him. The direct reference to her crew being told could be in response to Sisko believing a Starfleet ship won't fire on another, because her crew would be doing the actual firing. It could also mean what it plainly looks like - Benteen is in on it and her crew have been fed a story. The only hitch is...why have them board the ship?

But you're right. She stands down pretty fast, almost immediately after talking to Leyton. So that does make you think she knew they were innocent.

In conclusion, although it's ambiguous in a lot of places (Maybe they didn't want to tarnish her just in case they needed her again, like Nick Locarno/Tom Paris) I think Benteen being part of the conspiracy is more probable, maybe by 60/40.

Here's something else to consider, even if she's innocent: She was only captain for like, half a day, maybe. Both rank and position. And her promotion was an intentional part of Leytons plan, with a lot of promotions andnassignments taking effect on the same day - the 14th. Given Leytons immediate arrest, who knows if any of those changes would have been permanent?


Good discussion on it though. I think I'll recuse myself from the voting. I don't mind who the captain is; I just assumed Benteen would be because there really wasn't a direct accusation.


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[Allan Hood]

Got a little behind with updates from being busy in RL over the weekend.

I'm pleased to welcome LogicalLeopard and his character, Lt. Commander Biiqs "Bix" Tarquin, to the roleplay as our new Chief Tactical Officer!

I also regret to inform you that Saelanna is departing from the roleplay, as most of his time is needed within the UFP's Starfleet Academy. I completely understand as I know a lot of my own time has been filled with my obligations to the Ares Roleplay.

Congrats LogicalLeopard!! Welcome aboard!

I see that she'd still get demoted to Commander, for her actions, but not kicked out of Starfleet, for her inactions. Being that it's nine years later, I can see that she becomes captain of her ship again.

[LogicalLeopard]

Congrats LogicalLeopard!! Welcome aboard!

I see that she'd still get demoted to Commander, for her actions, but not kicked out of Starfleet, for her inactions. Being that it's nine years later, I can see that she becomes captain of her ship again.

Thank you! I think that's a likely option, if she didn't know. If she did though, she's toast and probably still in a Federation prison.

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