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Posted Fri 17 Aug, 2018 6:11 AM
–
Last edited by Bridger; Fri 17 Aug, 2018 9:00 AM.
She and all others committed treason against the Federation, she is also responsible for the death of Starfleet Officers on the Defiant and on the Lakota.
I think there is no way she was able to stay in Starfleet and even if she could I think no-one would ever trust her again.
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Post ID: 368060
#17
Posted Fri 17 Aug, 2018 1:40 PM
Maybe by extension because she was following orders.
That's the issue: should she be punished for doing what a good soldier should do considering the situation.
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#18
Posted Fri 17 Aug, 2018 2:36 PM
I agree with Scarlett. It's not such a black and white deal.
Benteen was new to the Captain's chair. Thus, putting aside bias and guilt by association with Leyton, a new Captain may not question *every detail and facet* of an direct order from an Admiral.
In the dialog provided, she *did* show some hesitation (to me) knowing that her orders were to fire upon a Starfleet vessel. Yet, Leyton, her superior, told her why (i.e. changlings have replaced the crew). If she had no doubt, she would have done exactly what Leyton wanted... destroy the ship. But she was trying to disable it, initially, no?
I think Benteen and Leyton both know what would happen if Benteen further questioned the order. Leyton would have fired her on the spot and have the Lakota's XO or whatever 'back-up overly ambitious officer' Leyton had in their backpocket. Leyton was a master manipulator.
I believe Benteen's issue was that she was over ambitious, which Leyton happily took advantage of. Someone that ambitious, once given a command of a starship, would likely be hesitate to overly question their superiors direct order. Even though Starfleet isn't a 'true military' organization, there have been *many* instances where we have seen Admirals (some corrupt) try to bully a Captain. Not everyone is Picard and able to maneuver or stand-up to said bullying. Remove the heroic Picard and put yourself... your true self in the same situation and ponder actions you may have taken. Do you question every detail or do you try to carry out the orders? To the letter or to the spirit of them?
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Post ID: 368111
#19
Posted Sat 18 Aug, 2018 12:27 AM
Yes and no.
I would like to incorporate her into our story for more than a brief transmission. Our ship will be commanding the overall mission at Dorvan V and her ship will be providing additional support. Since she's the senior Captain there, she'll be talkative with my character who is new at being a Captain while she has some experience under her belt. I would like to hear a post or 2 from our new Tactical Officer on her since he's transferring from her ship to ours.
Yes, that would be appropriate to reference her in a post or two, and maybe even a talk between our two characters where she is mentioned or Bix is asked for his opinion on her.
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#20
Posted Sat 18 Aug, 2018 12:32 AM
Right, this is totally more realistic haha storywise, I want to make it more interesting though. That's exactly the position I took earlier, then changed my mind cause I want her character in the story haha
All those steps I mentioned earlier are for her to show up in our story haha that's it. In my mind, those things have to happen for that to be possible and her have the rank of captain of that particular ship.
Yes, I think she'd be an interesting addition to the story! Whatever happened to her, it was bound to be a struggle getting back to the captains chair and that would bring about some interesting opportunities to play off of now.
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#21
Posted Sat 18 Aug, 2018 1:01 AM
She and all others committed treason against the Federation, she is also responsible for the death of Starfleet Officers on the Defiant and on the Lakota.
I think there is no way she was able to stay in Starfleet and even if she could I think no-one would ever trust her again.
If she did it unknowingly, she's got a good case to stay in Starfleet. But the latter part is right, not many would ever trust her again. It just looks too bad. She could gain some respect back for good service in the Dominion War, but I'd kind if think if you saw her sitting in a bar, most of the stools would be empty next to her.
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#22
Posted Sat 18 Aug, 2018 6:03 PM
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/mi...orders-3332819
"I Was Only Following Orders. "
"I was only following orders," has been unsuccessfully used as a legal defense in hundreds of cases (probably most notably by Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg tribunals following World War II). The defense didn't work for them, nor has it worked in hundreds of cases since.
The first recorded case of a United States Military officer using the "I was only following orders" defense dates back to 1799. During the War with France, Congress passed a law making it permissible to seize ships bound to any French Port. However, when President John Adams wrote the order to authorize the U.S. Navy to do so, he wrote that Navy ships were authorized to seize any vessel bound for a French port, or traveling from a French port. Pursuant to the President's instructions, a U.S. Navy captain seized a Danish Ship (the Flying Fish), which was en route from a French Port.
The owners of the ship sued the Navy captain in U.S. maritime court for trespass. They won, and the United States Supreme Court upheld the decision. The U.S. Supreme Court held that Navy commanders "act at their own peril" when obeying presidential orders when such orders are illegal.
The Vietnam War presented the United States military courts with more cases of the "I was only following orders" defense than any previous conflict. The decisions during these cases reaffirmed that following manifestly illegal orders is not a viable defense from criminal prosecution. In United States v. Keenan, the accused (Keenan) was found guilty of murder after he obeyed in order to shoot and kill an elderly Vietnamese citizen. The Court of Military Appeals held that "the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal.
" (Interestingly, the soldier who gave Keenan the order, Corporal Luczko, was acquitted by reason of insanity).
Probably the most famous case of the "I was only following orders" defense was the court-martial (and conviction for premeditated murder) of First Lieutenant William Calley for his part in the My Lai Massacre on March 16, 1968. The military court rejected Calley's argument of obeying the order of his superiors. On March 29, 1971, Calley was sentenced to life in prison. However, the public outcry in the United States following this very publicized and controversial trial was such that President Nixon granted him clemency.
Calley wound up spending 3 1/2 years under house arrest at Fort Benning Georgia, where a federal judge ultimately ordered his release.
In 2004, the military began court-martials of several military members deployed to Iraq for mistreating prisoners and detainees. Several members claimed that they were only following the orders of military intelligence officials. Unfortunately (for them), that defense won't fly. The mistreatment of prisoners is a crime under both international law and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (see Article 93 — Cruelty and Maltreatment).
However...
It's clear, under military law, that military members can be held accountable for crimes committed under the guise of "obeying orders," and there is no requirement to obey orders which are unlawful. However, here's the rub: A military member disobeys such orders at his/her own peril. Ultimately, it's not whether or not the military member thinks the order is illegal or unlawful; it's whether military superiors (and courts) think the order was illegal or unlawful.
Take the case of Michael New. In 1995, Spec-4 Michael New was serving with the 1/15 Battalion of the 3rd Infantry Division of the U.S. Army at Schweinfurt, Germany. When assigned as part of a multi-national peacekeeping mission about to be deployed to Macedonia, Spec-4 New and the other soldiers in his unit were ordered to wear United Nations (U.N.) Helmets and armbands. New refused the order, contending that it was an illegal order. New's superiors disagreed. Ultimately, so did the court-martial panel.
New was found guilty of disobeying a lawful order and sentenced to a bad-conduct discharge. The Army Court of Criminal Appeals upheld the conviction, as did the Court of Appeals of the Armed Forces.
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Posted Sat 18 Aug, 2018 6:47 PM
The U.S. Supreme Court held that Navy commanders "act at their own peril" when obeying presidential orders when such orders are illegal.
The Vietnam War presented the United States military courts with more cases of the "I was only following orders" defense than any previous conflict. The decisions during these cases reaffirmed that following manifestly illegal orders is not a viable defense from criminal prosecution. In United States v. Keenan, the accused (Keenan) was found guilty of murder after he obeyed in order to shoot and kill an elderly Vietnamese citizen. The Court of Military Appeals held that "the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal.
The difference with Benteen, however, is that she ostensibly received a totally reasonable and legal order. Like I said before, either she was in on the conspiracy, and her career is totally sunk, or she wasn't, and she can be exhonerated. So keep in mind, I'm only speaking from the latter.
Benteen received an order to stop the Defiant from reaching Earth, because it was full of Changelings. A changeling just infiltrated a high level meeting between Federation and Romulan officials, and bombed it. Her orders to fire on the Defiant are reasonable and lawful. She would have had no reason to suspect that Leyton was deceiving her and plotting murder. When she did, she stopped.
Now if she was part of the conspiracy, she absolutely cannot use the excuse that she was following orders, because she knew all those orders were highly illegal, treasonous, and murderous. Neither being given orders to do so, or stopping before she blew up the Defiant would save her from imprisonment.
So the only issue to consider is if she knew about the conspiracy or not. And the episode, although it lightly hints that she knew, could go either way. There's nothing that conclusively demonstrates Benteen's state of mind, or her knowledge.
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Posted Sat 18 Aug, 2018 8:08 PM
So the only issue to consider is if she knew about the conspiracy or not. And the episode, although it lightly hints that she knew, could go either way. There's nothing that conclusively demonstrates Benteen's state of mind, or her knowledge.
This. Although I think we may be into some deep weeds. If we want to follow canon, then maybe it's "safer" that Benteen is not in the picture. Where she is may not be anyone's business.
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Posted Sat 18 Aug, 2018 8:22 PM
This. Although I think we may be into some deep weeds. If we want to follow canon, then maybe it's "safer" that Benteen is not in the picture. Where she is may not be anyone's business.
That's the upswing of the canon part of this debate. You can totally support her being a member of Starfleet if she didn't know, because there's nothing to definitively contradict it. The fallout would be more political than judicial, and being a command level officer during a war is a good way to get back on track.
Red Squad, actually, would be in more trouble for their part in the conspiracy. They willingly and knowingly sabotaged Earth's power grid. Hard to say you were following orders if you leave the Earth defenseless and without power.
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Posted Sat 18 Aug, 2018 9:10 PM
She was Laytons right hand and she conducted the blood test.
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Post ID: 368139
#27
Posted Sat 18 Aug, 2018 9:54 PM
She was Laytons right hand and she conducted the blood test.
She was Leyton's right hand, true. Doesn't mean she knew. She conducted the blood test. Doesn't mean she knew it was faked. We're never even told how it was faked, even though Sisko asks. The episode is perfectly constructed to make it possible to believe that Benteen either was an active part of the conspiracy, or that she knew nothing about it. So its a choice of the viewer what to believe.
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Posted Sat 18 Aug, 2018 10:05 PM
Ohh wait, everyone! We have new Information!
From Benteen's entry on the StarTrek.com site:
Starfleet officer who assisted Admiral Leyton in his attempted military coup against the Federation government on Earthduring the Shapeshifter scare of 2372. Commander Benteen served as Leyton's adjutant when Captain Sisko was called to Earth to advise Starfleet on the Dominion threat, and she worked with Sisko to implement new security measures at Starfleet and Federation Headquarters to detect Changelinginfiltrators. Leyton then promoted Benteen to captain (at about Stardate 49170) and assigned her command of the U.S.S. Lakota, an Excelsior-class ship refitted with upgraded weapons, including quantum torpedoes.
Benteen was loyal to Leyton, even going so far as to frame Sisko as a Shapeshifter. But her loyalty was tested when Leyton ordered Benteen to intercept and destroy the Defiant, which was transporting an officer who would expose Leyton's deception, although Benteen and her crew were led to believe the ship was manned by Shapeshifters. Ultimately Sisko convinced her there were no Shapeshifters aboard the Defiant, and unwilling to kill 50 Starfleet officers, she called off her attack and allowed the ship to proceed to Earth, leading to Leyton's resignation.
Okay, so this is saying that she knew about framing Sisko, but really thought they were shapeshifters. But she still Defrauded the President and robbed Sisko of his freedom.
But, this is not information confirmed on film, and you all use Memory Alpha as a source, so this may not count.
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Posted Sun 19 Aug, 2018 12:59 PM
–
Last edited by Bridger; Sun 19 Aug, 2018 1:02 PM.
Considering Startrek.com is run by CBS this is information from the license owner.
Why was the blood test made by a command officer and not by one of the many security officers in the room.
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Posted Sun 19 Aug, 2018 2:05 PM
–
Last edited by Allan Hood; Sun 19 Aug, 2018 2:12 PM.
Okay, so this is saying that she knew about framing Sisko, but really thought they were shapeshifters. But she still Defrauded the President and robbed Sisko of his freedom.
But, this is not information confirmed on film, and you all use Memory Alpha as a source, so this may not count.
Considering Startrek.com is run by CBS this is information from the license owner.
Why was the blood test made by a command officer and not by one of the many security officers in the room.
That article says that Sisko was framed. She helped framed him on purpose. She knew he was human and not a changeling. Technically, it's still not canon, but it's closest we're going to get. We wouldn't really use this info; it's not canon.
"Benteen and her crew were led to believe the ship was manned by Shapeshifters..." I don't think it's accurate. Benteen knew cause she administered the test and for Sisko to change her mind about attacking the Defiant, she had to know he was human or she wouldn't have believed him. The crew, on the the other hand, had no idea and were following orders that they were changelings.