[Three of Seven]

White male is a bumbling fool. His superiors are strong women of colour.

[SRelar]

It's a trope that's being placed into everything. That's what I find irritating. Kurtzman products especially. Discovery, especially the god-awful Short _Bus Treks had it in spades. White guy is the bumbling buffoon, who is saved/talked down to/slapped about by a superior who is often a woman and often not white. When this trope started, I didn't really pay much attention to it, but once you notice it you start to notice it in everything modern that comes from particularly hackish writers (Kurtzman/JJ Abrams/the Star Wars writing room to name a few).

I don't care about colour; for gods sake I play a big cat in STO, they aren't white, black, yellow, green, or blue.

Just write good characters and stop putting preachy tropes into -everything-. Just tell GOOD STORIES.

I knew my post might get frowns but honestly I'm tired of biting my tongue on the subject. I apologise if it upsets anyone. It's just now I feel, and a good discussion should have all points of view open to scrutiny and debate for a rounded forum.

Mini-rant over.

It's just a cartoon.

[Three of Seven]

It's a trope that's being placed into everything. That's what I find irritating. Kurtzman products especially. Discovery, especially the god-awful Short _Bus Treks had it in spades. White guy is the bumbling buffoon, who is saved/talked down to/slapped about by a superior who is often a woman and often not white. When this trope started, I didn't really pay much attention to it, but once you notice it you start to notice it in everything modern that comes from particularly hackish writers (Kurtzman/JJ Abrams/the Star Wars writing room to name a few).

But they are all ensigns, none of them are superior to the other. I would also say, that in the trailer Bridger posted, they are both being buffoons, the white guy being goofy in making a Captains log, I wouldn't say it's really even buffonish, it's just silly, and embarrassing to get caught. The other one, the woman, is drunk and being extreamly goofy and dangerous, she clearly looks the most buffoonish in that trailer IMO.

The longer official trailer shows the XO being extreamly buff, he's a white guy, and Ensgin Mariner comes across as being extreamly goofy, she's turning the blast shield on and off. This cartoon looks to be a case of, everyone is goofy, a lot like Brooklyn 99, no one is "the saviour", and it's very much an ensemble cast from the looks.

In the past, you had a lot more TV shows, films, and comics which depicted people of colour to be goofy, and comic relief, with a white guy often being the hero. Never should one race be primary used for comic relief, while another is depicted as the hero. But in this case, no one race is comic relief, they all are, because it's a comedic cartoon.

[Th3TrueLuke]

It gives me the Final space vibe looking forward to this!

[Bar'ol]

Looks like it'll be blast to watch. We could use a bit more humor in today world. Why not let it be in a universe we like? Lower decks, who knows what structure it actually has haha. I imagine it be like this to a degree. They will be serious with senior staff around but being goof balls with each other. Like a show watching a bunch of privates interacting with one another. I'm sure we seen those videos before or know someone talking about stories as private in Military.

[Draco]

In the past, you had a lot more TV shows, films, and comics which depicted people of colour to be goofy, and comic relief, with a white guy often being the hero. Never should one race be primary used for comic relief, while another is depicted as the hero. But in this case, no one race is comic relief, they all are, because it's a comedic cartoon.

Indeed. We've had many decades of white guys (generally) being the hero or the boss. Even if it were the case here, and I agree with 3o7, it seems everyone is comic relief... A few years of the opposite isn't a trope, it's a correction, some long needed counter balance. I'm a middle aged, middle class white guy, and I heartily applaud that shift.

- - - Updated - - -

Looks like it'll be blast to watch. We could use a bit more humor in today world. Why not let it be in a universe we like

Well said! I very much enjoyed Picard, even though it was very different and am looking forward to more Trek! (Especially if they keep making geeky in-jokes like Martok's bat'leth). Of course it isn't 'real' Star Trek, but in my mind there is plenty of room for a comic cartoon in the Trek-verse.

Ps. Just to be clear: I do totally understand why for some (many?) Lower Decks is not appealing, just like I get how many people might not like Picard. Just expressing my own personal excitement

[Account003]

Indeed. We've had many decades of white guys (generally) being the hero or the boss.

Not to mention that neither in movies, TV-shows nor games we ever had a stunning and brave, strong female charakter!!!

[Draco]

Not to mention that neither in movies, TV-shows nor games we ever had a stunning and brave, strong female charakter!!!

I am guessing you are being ironic or sarcastic - but the point is not that we never had a strong female character, but since tv and movies started, the overwhelming majority of 'strong and brave' characters have been male. So a period where that trend reverses seems good to me.

[Account003]

but since tv and movies started, the overwhelming majority of 'strong and brave' characters have been male.

That is true...but why's that?
What's the reason behind it?
Why was the character of... I don't know... Alan Schaefer cast with Arnold Schwarzenegger?

So a period where that trend reverses seems good to me.

This is like saying: "We can only end racism and sexism by hiring people based on their skin color and/or sex!" (Which is actually happening)
Exactly this "Eye for an Eye" mentality is what divides society.

[Three of Seven]

This is like saying: "We can only end racism and sexism by hiring people based on their skin color and/or sex!" (Which is actually happening)
Exactly this "Eye for an Eye" mentality is what divides society.

Or, now hear me out on this one, because it's a crazy, and radical idea, we have stories that don't discriminate, I know it's shocking, but I do think we are allowed to have stories that don't cater to a white male audience, which lets face it, have been the dominant target audiance for quite some time. Does that mean that no stories should be made for that audiance? Of course not, that's silly, but some shows are made to reach a wider audience, and Star Trek Lower Decks is a comedy, which is aimed at a wide adult audience, so yes, you will get a goofy white guy, but the other characters are all goofy, is a silly argument.

I have no idea what your preference is for stories, but the old tropes need to die off, things like generic strong white man is the hero, saving the weak, but pretty generic white women.

[Account003]

Or, now hear me out on this one, because it's a crazy, and radical idea, we have stories that don't discriminate, I know it's shocking, but I do think we are allowed to have stories that don't cater to a white male audience, which lets face it, have been the dominant target audiance for quite some time. Does that mean that no stories should be made for that audiance? Of course not, that's silly, but some shows are made to reach a wider audience, and Star Trek Lower Decks is a comedy, which is aimed at a wide adult audience, so yes, you will get a goofy white guy, but the other characters are all goofy, is a silly argument.

Imagine for only one moment that the whole situation was vice versa and then tell me, with a straight face, that you would say the exact same thing as you just posted.
You also can't just bring something to the mythical "wider audience" (people who MAYBE buy your stuff) without losing parts of your "core audience" (people who actually do buy your stuff) - when the targeted "wider audience", by large, dosen't care about your stuff and certainly isn't interested in giving you any money whatsoever. Especially paired with writers who sh*t all over established rules and canon of an IP just to convey their ideology. Not to mention that their actual talent is somewhere between 2nd and 3rd grade.
Just look at TLoU2, the 2016 Ghostbusters, the remake of Charlie’s Angels, Battlefield 5, Ocean's 8, Star Trek: Burnham, Season 12 of Dr. Who...shall I go on?

But for the sake of the argument, let's assume for a moment that I'am wrong and the executives are right... You know what you then get, all the time?
Sh*t like this:

While the trailer could have been something powerful, it’s been marred by criticism over the casting of Giancarlo Esposito. Castillo is undoubtedly meant to be a Latino or Afro-Latino character but Esposito is not a Latino actor.

~~~

I have no idea what your preference is for stories, but the old tropes need to die off, things like generic strong white man is the hero, saving the weak, but pretty generic white women.

And what do we do with all the stories and tales (probably ~90% of all literature ever written/movies ever made/games ever created) who use these "tropes"? Destroy them?

[Three of Seven]

Oh good lord, you're bringing up TLoU2, that drama was hilarious! I loved how a bunch of grown men were getting angry because a woman had lots of muscle, I know it wasn't all the criticism, but that one was good.

As for series 12 of Dr. Who, what is wrong with it? It had some very good episodes, it had some weak ones too, but then so have some of the previous series.

Your other examples, I don't know much about, other than Discovery, which I don't personally like, it's not a whole cast working together, it just centres on one person for most of the time. More recent episodes have had some better ones in, but overall, meh.

Haven't been sold on Picard either, which is an odd omission from your list, as it is a series with a fair bit of controversy around it, not sure why that isn't on your list for bad writing, oh well.

For your last paragraph, I never said to destroy them, that is an argument you are making on my behalf. I never said destroy them, I said we need to let those tropes die off, which means to move on, progress forwards.

[aceman67]

Or, now hear me out on this one, because it's a crazy, and radical idea, we have stories that don't discriminate, I know it's shocking, but I do think we are allowed to have stories that don't cater to a white male audience, which lets face it, have been the dominant target audiance for quite some time.

But^TM...

I'm all for inclusivity and representation, but as an amateur author and artist, I say this: not at the expense of the artist/writer's vision, and especially not when it's shoehorned in to fill some imaginary self-imposed quota. You can't be inclusive without excluding someone. You can't please everyone.

I've always been a proponent for doing something right, or not doing it at all, and subject matter that deals with LGBT or Feminism or other things that, in our socio-political climate, are some seriously heady stuff and as such should be both treated with the respect it deserves and to give it the best treatment it could possibly get. To do anything less rings hollow and can be seen as patronizing and tone-deaf at the very least, especially in the wrong hands, and we see this all too often.

Today's entertainment industry is nearly entirely motivated by the acquisition of money (and it would make papa Quark proud); It will try anything it can to please whatever audience it's targeting, even if segments of that same audience are asking for something the majority doesn't want. Like I said previously, you can't please everyone.

Art, at the end of the day, is a form of expression by the artist.

And, ... yeah, not even going to touch that, other than to say that your hostility isn't doing you any favours.

[Morris]

From what I've seen of Lower Decks, there's nothing there that I'm interested in. That's not to say that I have a problem with it. It may be funny. It may even be a well written animated comedy, though considering who's producing it, I'm not optimistic about that. I do think that CBS took the wrong approach, when rebooting Star Trek. When rebooting an existing franchise, IMHO, you should aim to re engage your existing fan base and hope to bring in new fans as well. By alienating a large portion of existing Star Trek fans, CBS created a large amount of negative social media that cannot be helping the new shows gain viewership. By targeting people who've never been invested in Star Trek, you're aiming for the same audience that EVERYONE ELSE is competing for these days, and you're pushing away existing fans. That doesn't seem like a good business model to me. It does look like a politically/ socially motivated business model though. That is fine. CBS is a business. They can operate however they like. They have to answer to their investors...and their customers/ ex-customers! I think that by expanding the Star Trek portfolio so quickly, without a bona fide hit (I'm sure that some would debate me on this, so consider this 'IMHO'), CBS is diluting the Star Trek property. Star Trek has mostly been smart, serious, optimistic, and well written science fiction. Personally, I feel that this new generation of Star Trek is none of that. Discovery and Picard feel like very badly written soap operas...focused on forced/ manufactured drama and in your face socio-political messaging. The science fiction in both shows borders more on science fantasy than science fiction, IMHO. So now seeing an animated young-adult comedy that turns young Starfleet officers into immature and dangerous buffoons doesn't do anything to return to a Star Trek that is recognizable to me. I know that is not the intent of Lower Decks, but it is just another straw on the camel's back. It shows me that CBS isn't about making Star Trek shows...it's about making more of the same as everything else on TV right now, but with a Star Trek skin on it. That's not Star Trek! For me, as a lifelong Star Trek fan, CBS has destroyed the Star Trek that I've known. I watched the first 2 seasons of Discovery, and the debut season of Picard. That was enough for me. I will no longer watch any of the new Star Trek. I've been watching, because I've wanted to support new Star Trek shows being available to watch again, but to my mind, these shows are not Star Trek. They are a perverse distortion...a poorly written co-opting of the franchise by people who are either not fans, or are attempting to reshape Star Trek to their own imaginings. I feel that I support Star Trek more by not watching these pretender shows. At this point, I'd be more happy with Star Trek dying than for this to become the new model for what Star Trek is.

Regarding the political/ social commentary going on in this thread, if it was wrong for media to only portray white males as the protagonists in the past, then it's equally wrong to only portray women of color as the only protagonists now. Two wrongs don't make a right. Represent people equally from now on. That's how it should be....that's how it should have always been! I say this because there are many that believe that those under-represented in the past deserve to be over-represented now, in order to make up for past inequities. This under-represents another group now. An eye for an eye is a pretty archaic philosophy, as far as I'm concerned! That doesn't mean to misrepresent the story being told. I believe that historical stories should be represented in a historically accurate fashion. I appreciate factually accurate representation. Contemporary, futuristic, and fictional anytime stories can be represented however is appropriate to the stories, but I lose immersion in historical stories when representation is thrown in for representation sake. I understand that there is going to be over-representation for a while, for those under-represented in the past. It's not right, but it is human nature. We don't just adjust to the right amount of anything. We bounce from too far one way, to too far the other way, before we finally begin to get things right. Most businesses are eager to show that they are representative as well, so the swing towards over-representation is now occurring. While I don't like seeing all of the forced, in your face representation in most media these days, I do understand it and hope for the normalization to happen sooner, rather than later! Rather than treating us based on our race, gender, wealth.....this list could go on forever, because we can divide humanity up into subgroups forever, I long for the day when we are all treated equally as humans! (Isn't that what Star Trek always aimed to promote!!!)

[Bridger]