[Petrarch]

Attachment 14318

Episode Discussion

"Su'Kal"

US Airdate: 24/12/2020 (CBS All Access)
International: 25/12/2020 (Netflix)

This thread is for the pre and post discussion of the Season 3 episode "Su'kal" - this will be a spoiler filled discussion so if you've found your way past the warnings in the activity stream and the spoiler tag on the thread, this is your last chance to turn back, or at least it will be at the end of this first post. You have been warned!

The crew heads to the Verubin Nebula and Saru, Culber and Burnham all have a realisation on the origin of the Burn. Meanwhile, the Discovery faces an unexpected threat.

Some promo shots of the upcoming episode can be found here.

"Su'Kal" is episode 11 of 13.

Written by: Anne Cofell Saunders
Directed by: Norma Bailey

[Shadowmeph]

Well that was a let down for me just like I thought that it would be. a tiny bit entertaining but let down I dont think any Captain would have done what he did also just proved my point on letting her be as number one lazy writing again trying to please everyone with things that dont really have to do with the rest of the story... fillers. or maybe I am just still grumpy because Georgio is gone if she was there I think the suggestions she would have made what happened wouldn't have happened

[Aleaic]

A complicated 'and' weird as heck episode. And now the last seed of the Federation in in danger. Yay.

And also for the Andorian kiddies: ALL HAIL EMPEROR GRUDGE!!!! HAIL KITTY-FIRMA!!!! (I'm done.)

[Arno12]

I was a little let down with this episode but at the same time I'm glad the burn was something unexpected, kind of reminds me of that TNG episode where that omnipotent entity wiped out the Husnock. I wonder if the Enterprise will make an appearance or not.

[Aleaic]

And what the Enterprise even looks like, if the writers go that far. Who knows.

[darthnovawave]

I think this might have been the first real miss for me on episodes this season. The Burn is no more than a harmonic resonance from the planet/nebula to a child's temper tantrum? Really?

I'm also underwhelmed by the whole Emerald Chain too. Despite the attempts to call them a menace for the Federation, they have felt like petty thugs when shown on screen all season. So for the petty thugs to suddenly beam in and seize all the most strategic points on the unique ship that they saw once before a single shot was fired was horribly anticlimactic and extremely jarring from a storytelling standpoint. Maybe they are saving the refitted Disco engaged in combat as a big season finale unveil, but after two seasons of combat action that would fit right in with the JJ-verse movies, the total lack of direct combat scenes from Disco itself is notable.

Overall it feels like the writers backed themselves into a corner and just needed this to get on track again. At least I hope it is getting on track...

[Bridger]

I am out, there was line in the sand and they crossed it.

Millions of people died on their ships the entiere Galaxy in chaos because of that ROFL

[Arno12]

Why do I have a gut feeling this season will end with a set up for next season being putting the Federation back Together, seems like its heading in that direction.

[Tain]

I was left feeling incredibly irritated after this episode. By far the worst of the series imo. The Orion and its pathetic leader are about as intimidating as a board with a bent nail in it.

And so millions of deaths and the down fall of the federation was from the meltdown of the 100 year old man child?

Could we also get a bloody actual first officer please? An insecure ensign two years out of the academy is a joke. It was also pretty comical when Michael of all people was telling the captain he was compromised and not thinking clearly, pot meet kettle.

[Solace]

Yeaaaaaah noooo... I don’t know what the heck I watched.. but millions of deaths and downfall of dilithium as we know it all because of a temper tantrum? Nope. Nope and nope again..

Also Osyraa is boring as a “villain” because she’s utterly forgettable.. how the frick did say sieze control of discovery unless there is a mole that gave her the information to capture Discovery?

[Arno12]

how the frick did say sieze control of discovery unless there is a mole that gave her the information to capture Discovery?

I'm guessing that range extender Book used prior was probably what did it, anyone else notice how young the other starfleet officers alongside the admiral looked? They looked more like cadets to me.

[Solace]

I'm guessing that range extender Book used prior was probably what did it, anyone else notice how young the other starfleet officers alongside the admiral looked? They looked more like cadets to me.

I was wondering if the Admiral was under Osyraa’s spell.. remember Orion females can use their pheromones to make the opposite sex do what ever she wanted.

[JByb04]

Definitely not what I expected the cause of the burn to be. I'm not saying that is entirely a bad thing but it's not necessarily a good thing either. I don't think a child's temper tantrum should've led to the decline of the United Federation of Planets.

Also as much as I like Ensign Tilly. She has NO business being in the Captain's Chair during a crisis situation at this stage in her career. I didn't agree with the writers making her the 1st Officer. Saru as Captain should have taken her inexperience and potential to be in a crisis situation while in command into consideration. Even if he felt confident in her ability to execute his orders leaving the bridge of his ship in my opinion constitutes a severe lapse in judgement. Because Tilly made one cardinal mistake and she paid dearly for it.

Her first duty was to the ship. Even if it means sacrificing members of her crew and even her Captain. When faced with a superior enemy with no tactical chance of winning. She should've given the order to jump back to Federation Territory.

The show has taken a lot of steps forward. But this week it took a few steps backward for me.

[Sul-Matuul]

Well despite all the complaints from others I personally really liked that episode.

It had a proper Trek feel to it with the weird holo-program, the mysterious monster we still don't fully understand, a totally alien landscape and a computer program that has clearly gone wonky after trying to perform its duty to protect for over a century.

Also nice curveball with the cause of the Burn, though we still don't have all the answers on that. Clearly the exposure to subspace and radiation combined with a vast quantity of dilithium has caused some bizarre side effects in the child; he seems to have "evolved"(?) into some sort of higher being almost with the ability to manifest his fears.
I'm getting vide of the Monster from the Id from Forbidden Planet in that his own emotions are creating something he cannot control and that in turn reacted with the local environment to create a cataclysmic event.

The Kelpian ship was likely looking for a source of dilithium on that planet when it crashed for whatever reason. Clearly the loss of all other living beings and his family, plus the lack of maturity have played a big role in the way Su'kal's feelings manifest.
Whatever he has to confront is probably something like understanding his family is dead and that he was placed into that holodeck to survive by them.

This sort of "emotional outburst" causing devastation has already been seen in Trek before; the Husnock were destroyed in one go by an angry entity losing he cool.
The Ocampa eventually evolve into extremely powerful beings and we've seen Kes in VOY nearly kill others very easily with raw emotional outbursts.
The Trek galaxy has been full of all manner of ultra-powerful beings who were either able to manifest their will or who could do immeasurable damage were they unable to control their abilities.

Tilly as XO was hardly lacking. She did not fall for the attempts to elicit and emotional response when told she does not belong there. She was firm, decisive and did what was required; and for anyone saying she should have left crew members behind, we've seen plenty of instances all across Trek where the ship "should" have left but never does. All our captains have ignored the best intentions of the ship to save even single crew members, or avert disaster.
This was a Kobayashi Marau situation; she leaves here crew members to die or she risks losing the ship....there is no way to win outright in this scenario.

I'm still not sold on Adm. Vance; part of me is feeling a bit uneasy with him in recent episodes. Is he really in league with the Emerald Chain? Is he will in the stereotypical Trek role of being a badmiral?
Still not sure how else the EC could really track Discovery so well and know exactly where it was, and get there so fast without some insider knowledge.

[JByb04]

Tilly as XO was hardly lacking. She did not fall for the attempts to elicit and emotional response when told she does not belong there. She was firm, decisive and did what was required; and for anyone saying she should have left crew members behind, we've seen plenty of instances all across Trek where the ship "should" have left but never does. All our captains have ignored the best intentions of the ship to save even single crew members, or avert disaster.
This was a Kobayashi Marau situation; she leaves here crew members to die or she risks losing the ship....there is no way to win outright in this scenario.

You're correct this was a no win scenario. However Discovery is considered a critical asset with a unique propulsion system and that outweighs all other concerns.

If Discovery was too large to enter the Nebula without damage. Logically the Emerald Chain vessel being larger would've suffered a similar amount of damage attempting to get to the planet. The Away Team would've been safe long enough for Discovery to jump to Federation HQ, make repairs to the shields, and make the jump back into a direct orbit over the planet.

This isn't an indictment of Ensign Tilly. I realize my earlier post may have come off as such but really I feel that she was set up to fail. She made a bad choice due to inexperience. I do know that if I was Fleet Admiral Vance there would be a Formal Hearing and Captain Saru would likely be relieved of duty. But Fleet Admiral Vance also bears a bit of responsibility here as he was aware of the Captain's intentions of joining the away team. You could see it in his face, he disagreed with that decision, but allowed it to happen.

In universe there was a lot of failure on the part of Senior Staff which led to the Discovery being captured. But in the real world this was just bad writing and I can forgive a bad episode here and there.